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Post by bob on Sept 1, 2016 21:43:33 GMT
They must be able to move otherwise there would not need to be a rule that says they cannot move into contact. . The one strange thing about command post, command wagons, and litters is that they can move into bad going whereas artillery and war wagons cannot.
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Psiloi
Aug 31, 2016 21:17:28 GMT
Post by bob on Aug 31, 2016 21:17:28 GMT
Don't forget that they move as a line through bad and rough going. They, along with Ax, get to deploy in the outer zone. Do not get pursued by foot other than hordes, do not get second rank support against them from warbands and Pk. Get passed through by fleeing elephants and other mounted. These combined with all the above make them pretty useful. I might give up one for an ally but I wouldn't give up all my Psiloi . My only regret from the development, is that they cannot make contact on that first double move.
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Post by bob on Aug 30, 2016 14:57:24 GMT
There is no "pickiness" to it. The rules explicitly state who loses the game.
"The first side that at the end of any bound has now lost a total of 4 elements not including Scythed Chariots, Hordes, camp followers or denizens and has also lost more such elements than the enemy, has lost the battle"
What part of "more such elements" is being picky. A player has lost the game if at the end of a bound he has lost four elements And more such elements than the enemy. A game cannot end unless one player has lost four elements and MORE than his opponent. Thus a game cannot end if both players have lost 4.
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Post by bob on Aug 28, 2016 17:26:49 GMT
I don't understand what you are reading regarding movement that lets you say mounted infantry, and particularly mounted bows, are neither fast nor solid. The movement rules make a clear distinction between fast mounted bows (Mtd-3Bw) and solid mounted bows (Mtd-4Bw).
4 BW If Light Horse, Cavalry or Scythed Chariots and only in good going. 3 BW If Knights, Elephants, Camelry or any mounted infantry and only in good going, or if “Fast” foot in any going. 2 BW If “Solid” Auxilia or “Solid” Warband in any going, or if other “Solid” foot and only in good going. 1 BW If any troops other than “Fast” foot, Auxilia or Warband and in bad or rough going for any part of the move (except that Artillery and War Wagons cannot deploy or move at all off-road in bad going).
Clearly all mounted infantry, there are only mounted bows, move 3BW in good going. fast mounted infantry, those with 3 figures on the base also move 3BW in any going. Any troops other then fast, which would include solid mounted Bows, that is those with 4 figures on the base, move one BW in rough or bad going.
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Post by bob on Aug 27, 2016 14:07:37 GMT
Tony has quoted the exact rule, and highlighted the phrase, "has also lost more such elements than the enemy." How can anyone possibly think that it's over at a 4 - 4 tie. At that point neither side has lost more!
After that it's not quite sudden death in that the first player to lose an element beyond four loses the game. Complete bounds are still played, not stopped at the first loss, during the bound. At the end of a bound the losses are counted, and a player who has lost four and more than his opponent, loses. It's possible during a bound after both have lost four, that one player loses another element, and then the other player loses another element, so at the end of the bound neither player has lost more. Then play another bound..
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Post by bob on Aug 26, 2016 17:22:50 GMT
I'm confused as to what the conclusion of all this discussions is. As noted above, mounted infantry are foot type. Mounted bow are clearly either fast or solid depending on how many foot figures on the base. They are somehow mounted Mtd in DBMM if anybody cares. ''MOUNTED INFANTRY Mtd-X Mtd 60-80 40-60 3-4 + mount ."
So mounted infantry can have either 3 or 4 foot figures on the base.
''Psiloi and foot that are listed as 3, 5 or 6 to a base are classed as “Fast” foot, others as “Solid” foot."
So if 3 foot figures, the element is fast: if 4 foot figures the element a solid.
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Post by bob on Aug 26, 2016 17:04:03 GMT
Here is another what if that has been troubling me. What if that element at the upper right joined the element in front contact with the LH. Now LH is contacted by a group, and must conform to the group. The general question is, does the group need to make the initial contact, or once a group forms, does the contacted element conform.
Good point about the moving element not being on the flank of the LH, but that upper right-hand element is, so why not hit the LH flank with that?
Tom, I do not think that it is stated or even hinted at in the rules that an element must contact as much as possible, when after its move it cannot fully contact the enemy . I think this is a proper question for the FAQ group. Most readers will not know the intent of this rule.
I think The pursuit question you raise is answered by the following rule "If a pursuing element's front edge contacts enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge, they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound ."
The pursuing element not only has contacted an enemy, but it is in contact with an enemy, and they are in fact already lined up. There is however a question as to what happens if the pursuing element is blocked by its own side element.
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Post by bob on Aug 24, 2016 15:36:48 GMT
Contacting elements rear to rear is not a legal contact. Why not hit one of those blades in the flank? Or overlap the lower blade with a millimeter space between the top blade. If it recoils then next bound if it doesn't move it's got rear to rear contact. You get the same effect if you flank that Lower blade.
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Post by bob on Aug 23, 2016 3:05:51 GMT
I believe that the rule stating that elements must be within one base width of the waterway supersedes the requirement for a group of to be touching the waterway. This is an example of a difference between the small game in the big game. Note not 1-3.
Small game = " If a waterway has been placed, either side can reserve 2-3 elements (whose army's home terrain is LITTORAL) to be deployed at the start of its first bound (before PIP dicing) as a single group anywhere along the waterway. At least 1 element of the group must touch the waterway."
Big game " This differs from the standard version only as described below"
"A littoral landing must be by a full command provided by an army whose own home topography is LITTORAL; and all that command's elements must deploy within 1 BW of the Water Way."
Thus single blade element can be placed a base width away from the waterway not in a group or touching the WW. It does not seem correct that all 24 elements of the littoral command must be in a group, touching the waterway.
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Post by bob on Aug 22, 2016 16:18:58 GMT
There are many differences between littoral landings in big battle and standard game. In standard game the maximum number that can land is three elements and they must be in a group, and one element "must touch the waterway". There is no restriction given as to what part or how much of an element must do the touching. In the big battle game, a full command must land, so up to 24 elements can land. An army is divided into three commands, each a minimum of six elements. So if 2 commands of six, then one command of 24 elements. There is no restriction as to how the 6 - 24 deployed elements along the waterway are arranged, that is as a group or not, only that each element is within one BW of the waterway. The rules imply that the same element restrictions apply to landing in the big game as to the small game, no elephants, artillery or Warwagon. Therefore, a full Carthaginian army with the elephants cannot be landed. It is also implied that the 24 elements, like the three in the small game, are reserved at deployment, and not placed along the waterway until the first bound. This is somewhat confusing. As it is not explicitly stated in the rules, which do say that all commands are placed during deployment, with no reference to reserving anything. So this must be implied as being like the small game. "Either the defender deploys all commands, then the invader deploys all his (the quickest method; and note that the defender has first move); or the defender deploys 1 or more commands, then each in turn places a command."
Interesting situation that 24 elements can make a Littoral landing within the 15 minutes of a bound. Are bounds longer in big battle games?
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Post by bob on Aug 21, 2016 22:27:59 GMT
It is certainly possible for an action to be legal and dodgy. That latter word has lots of meanings, however, so what did you have in mind? In any event, the Littoral Landing rule does not state how much of an element must touch the Waterway. We know that corner to corner element touching is contact so, element corner to Waterway edge touching is contact. The flee situation seems clear: "or if it enters any river" If it is in the river, and must flee, then it is not entering it. Phil knows the difference between entering and starting in. Note the language of the pursue rule which includes both being in and entering.
An element in . . . in bad going (other than marsh or gully) or . . . enter such bad going, does not pursue.
For the element to be destroyed if starting in the river, would not the rule be
"It is destroyed if it starts with an enemy front edge in contact with its flank or rear edges, or if after turning it cannot move at all, or if it >starts in< or enters any river. "
By the way, you had quite a wet battlefield, with both a Waterway and a River.
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Post by bob on Aug 21, 2016 2:44:03 GMT
I don't know what you mean by "changed "but here is what the rule says now about terrain sizes. "Each must fit into a rectangle of which the length plus the width totals no more than 9 BW. Only 1 feature can have a length (maximum dimension) of less than 3 BW. Every feature must have both a length and a width (maximum dimension at a right angle to its length) of at least 1 BW. A Gully's length must be at least 3 times its width. The length of other features must not exceed twice their width. BUA and Plough can have straight edges; otherwise all features must be a natural shape with curved edges."
When you say "determine terrain" do you mean how to place it or how to make it? The former takes up about a whole page in the new rules and the latter you can get from Sue Barker's how to start ancient wargaming book. Check out the miniatures page for companies making terrain. Cut up felt will certainly do for a starter, but people are now putting quite a bit of effort into their terrain features.
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Post by bob on Aug 16, 2016 17:03:16 GMT
On military matters in the US carries rule book as people have noted. There is also Sue barkers book start ancient wargaming. The pricing is by the way comparable to the cost of other ancient rule books. Sue's book is a bit less it has all the rules, An example game, some ideas of how to make Up armies, create terrain, and it includes about 100 army lists. Shakespear, are you in the US.? I have a spare game board by "the terrain guy" that I could sell you. Send me email, beattie@umich.edu
By the way I just got three very nice armies from Essex, packaged for DBAs three. If you're looking for a painted army, check out eBay as they show up there quite regularly.
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Post by bob on Aug 15, 2016 18:14:55 GMT
FINAL FALL IN SCHEDULE De Bellis Antiqutatis at FALL IN 2016 (November 4-6 Lancaster, PA) Below is a short description of tournaments and other events being put on by the DBA Interest Group of the North American Society of Ancient and Medieval Wargamers. For more information, please go the NASAMW registration desk in the Lampeter Room. A single entry fee of $5 is charged and covers all DBA events you play in. This goes for trophies and other event expenses. For more information on NASAMW, go here nasamw.netSign-Up Sheets for all events will be at the DBA HQ Table. ALL of our events are new player friendly. When you show up, there are plenty of people willing to help you learn how to play and help out with loaning an army for an event. Just ask! DBA events will be the 3.0 versions of the rules with the FAQ. If a player cannot muster an army from the 3 list, it is ok to use one from 2, but all the troops will perform as in 3. For example, a Classical Indian army is now allowed only solid bows (4Bw), so if a 2 army with three figure Bow elements is used, they will be designated as Solid. There are armies to borrow for newcomers, contact one of the Co-Event Managers. The FAQ is here: ancientwargaming.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/dba_faq_q2_2016.pdfEvent size in terms of players is unlimited unless noted below. Players should bring their own terrain but some communal terrain will be available; all battlefields are provided. Players must show up at events 10 minutes prior to the posted start time for assignments. DBA Co-Event Managers: Bob Beattie (beattie@umich.edu) and Joe Alberti Thursday: Long, Pointy Things. Stooges Famous Early Bird Tournament 8 PM to 11 PM on Thursday night before the con starts. Rules: DBA 3, 15mm, 3 or 4 rounds. Eligible 3.0/2.0 armies must have 4 pikes, minimum. GM: Larry Chaban (of The Stooges) Friday: Introduction to DBA 3 10AM – 12noon For new players who what to learn the long standing game of DBA and those who what to find out what is new with DBA 3. Host: Bob Beattie and Joe Alberti DBA 15mm -- Open Tournament 1:00 PM – 5 PM Rules: DBA 3, 15mm, 3 rounds, 24” Battlefields Bring any legal DBA 2 or 3 army. Historical matchups if possible in the first round. GM: Joe Alberti King Arthur vs the Saxons – A 25mm DBA giant scenario game 6:30PM – 11PM A giant game of the Reel King Arthur vs the Saxons. Up to 5 armies on a side. Arthur with Roman and Pict allies (remember Kira Knightly). The Saxons get Vortigen allies. All armies provided. GM: Bob Beattie Saturday: DBA 15mm Theme Tournament “Do you trust your allies?” 9AM – 12noon Rules: DBA 3, 15mm, 3 rounds, 24” Battlefields Any legal DBA 2 or 3 15mm army with allies as described on page 31 of DBA 3. ALLIED CONTINGENTS An army may be allowed ally contingents from another listed army. If so, this is specified at the bottom of its own army list. A single allied contingent consists of exactly 3 elements from its own army list. In the rare instances when more than one allied army provided allied contingents at the same battle, two allied contingents from different armies are allowed, each of exactly 2 elements. An allied contingent must include the general’s element of its army (which does not function as a general) and at least 1 element from the entry with the largest number of elements. If the army has 2 troop types with that number allowed, the player chooses which to use. Any third element is the player’s choice from elements yet unused. Allied elements are exchanged for the same number of elements from the main army’s list, which cannot include its general. Note that Allied elements can only make a group move with elements of their contingent. GM: Joe Alberti DBA Matched Pairs Tournament 1PM – 6PM Rules: DBA 3, any scale, 4 rounds Bring any two armies that are listed as enemies in the army list. Players divided into two pools: A and B. In the first round, Pool A players choose which of their opponent’s army they will use. In second round, Pool B players choose which army to use. And so forth in rounds 3 and 4. A player uses one of his own armies in 2 rounds, and opponent’s armies twice. Because one player’s armies are being used in each round, they can be of any scale; on 40mm or 60mm wide bases. 40mm based armies play on 24” battlefields; 60mm on 36” ones. GM: Bob Beattie Good, Bad and Ugly International Hordes of the Things (HOTT) 25mm Tournament A walk in history - "Here be dragons"! 7PM – 11PM Rules: Hordes of the Thing 2.1 (with recommended Base Width Movement), 25mm, 3 rounds, 36” battlefields. This is the new Fall In Leg of a 10 part tournament, with events around the world. This is open to any 25mm tournament with 24 AP armies. However, to qualify for the Theme and the International Barker Best Army Trophy, the army must be elements found in HOTT. However, the army must be a factual historical army, for example Roman, Greek, medieval, WWI, WWII, Pirates, the Wild West, Native American, etc. The army cannot be based on fantasy or myth for example Tolkien (Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit), Narnia, Redwall, Weirdstone, etc. – however, the army could however have some elements from these sources. A theme army must have at least half the AP as true historical elements, while at least 2 elements must be fantasy. You may have more than 2 elements of fantasy, if you desire up to 12 AP. See details here fanaticus.boards.net/thread/156/2016-good-ugly-international-tournamentThere will be awards to local winners. Best Theme army will be entered into the international competition. Also best Stronghold (as voted by players) will be submitted. Loaner armies will be available. Contact the GM with questions. GM: Bob Beattie
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Post by bob on Aug 14, 2016 22:31:20 GMT
I am posting this for Terry Webb to keep it alive. ====================================== I am pleased to announce that the theme for the 2016 Good, Bad and Ugly International Hordes of the Things (HotT) Tournament is
A walk in history - "Here be dragons"!
The Leg Coordinators/Organizers have worked very hard the past two months determining a theme that would appeal to players, allow for some fun armies and make for a good tournament. We feel a little explanation is best since theme armies are eligible for the Barker Award – the best theme army in the entire tournament.
First it is a normal 24 AP army with the standard guidelines of the rules of only allowing no more than 12 AP as elements above 2 AP. All elements must be elements found in HotT. However, the army must be a factual historical army, for example Roman, Greek, medieval, WWI, WWII, Pirates, the Wild West, Native American, etc. The army cannot be based on fantasy or myth for example Tolkien (Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit), Narnia, Redwall, Weirdstone, etc. – however, the army could however have some elements from these sources.
A theme army must have at least half the AP as true historical elements, while at least 2 elements must be fantasy. You may have more than 2 elements of fantasy, if you desire up to 12 AP.
To explain what is meant by historical and fantasy, and a few examples:
Historical = those elements that truly existed in history, and are elements found in DBA, and must also be found in HotT – these being: artillery, blades, hordes, knights, spears or warband.
Fantasy = those elements that exist in HotT, but do not exist in DBA – these being: aerial heroes, airboats. beasts, behemoths, clerics, dragons, fliers, gods, heroes, lurkers, magicians, paladins, shooters or sneakers.
Example #1 a. Saxon Bowmen = Fantasy - because Shooters is a HotT only element type, there is no Bow element type in HotT.
b. Orc bowmen = Fantasy - because Shooters is a HotT only element type and the figures are fantasy.
Example #2 a. Saxon Fyrd Spearmen = Historical - because spears is both a DBA and a HotT element type, but the figures are historical and are human. Human pikemern could be classified as spears and so historical.
b. Orc Spears = Fantasy - because spears is both a DBA and a HotT element, but the figures are fantasy.
Example #3
a. Elephant = Fantasy - because the elephant element type does not exist in HotT, but behemoth does, therefore it is played as a behemoth.
b. Da Vinci tank = Fantasy - because it is not historical (i.e. never truly existed as far as I know beyond paper), so it would be a behemoth.
Example #4 a. Hero = Fantasy - because you are playing *King Arthur as a Hero General, and Hero is a HotT only element type.
b. Knight = Historical - because you are playing *King Arthur as a Knight General and the element type exists in both DBA and HotT.
c. Nazgul on horse = Fantasy - because this is a fantasy only figure type be he Knight, Hero, Rider, etc.
(*of course we don't know who King Arthur really was, but for this example he was a real person)
A theme army is not required to participate, however only theme armies are eligible to compete for the Barker Award. As in the past, one theme army from each Leg will be submitted for voting for the Barker Award.
In addition to the Barker Award, We are implementing a stronghold Award for the best Stronghold. A Stronghold will be eligible even if it didn’t get played – a player was the attacker in all three rounds. But the stronghold must be the one he would have played had he been the defender. The tournament will consist of three rounds.
All armies must be declared as either Good or Bad as the player wishes, and it is hoped that an even balance can be obtained. The wins for these two factions will be collected for an over all determination.
We are changing the award structure this year, and have decided to discontinue the overall awards. However, each Leg Coordinator will provide awards locally. Therefore, the only awards overall will be for the best theme army and the best stronghold. The Top winner in each location will receive a Good, Bad and Ugly certificate for their accomplishment.
We have added a new location, the Shetland Islands, giving us ten locations so far this year. They ar:e
Bob Beattie – Midwest USA (Michigan) Blake Radetzky – Republic of Texas (San Antonio) Euan Caldwell – Glasgow Bob Carter – North Yorkshire Victor Jarmusz – Sydney Tim Moore – Staines Massive/GBnU (Staines) John Hovey - Tornado Alley (Dallas) Tom Thomas – Atlanta Mike McEwan – Shetland Islands Terry Webb – Nashville
If any one is interested in joining the tournament as either a new Leg or as a participant, please contact me Terry Webb: drover698 at gmail dot com I’ll see you get included. __________________
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