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Post by bob on Jun 6, 2021 20:24:56 GMT
I recall that during development one aspect of 2.2 that people wanted to change was moving into overlap. In the earlier game, an element could not move to overlap against an enemy if that enemy was not in frontal combat. "Other troops can move into contact with enemy elements only if a single element or at least one element of a group ends in both front edge and front corner-to-front corner, or full front edge to rear edge, contact with an enemy element or _overlaps enemy already in close combat_.
The change came out to allow overlap contact with enemy not in frontal combat. "At the end of the bound’s movement phase the contacting element or at least one element of a contacting group must be lined-up with an enemy element, either; ... (d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap"
Or so I remember. Is it the case that in 3.0 an element can move into overlap position with enemy element even if no friend is in frontal contact with that enemy?
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Post by stevie on Jun 6, 2021 22:21:53 GMT
There was a lengthy debate about this, last year I think. Basically, there are two schools of thought. Them wot says you can…and them wot says you can’t.  I happen to belong to party that says you can. My reasons for believing this are as follows. ① Ending the move phase in a legal position.Page 9 “Moving Into Contact With The Enemy” gives the 4 legal end-of-move-phase positions:- (a) in full mutual front-edge contact (sliding so corners touch), or (b) in full front-edge to rear-edge contact (corners touching), or (c) in front-edge to side-edge contact (front corners touching), or (d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in an overlap position. (and there are two types of overlap: mutual side-edge to side-edge, or corner-to-corner) If due to a lack of movement ending in 1 of these 4 positions is not possible, the move can’t happen. (So ending in a overlap is simply a legal end-of-move-phase position, just like positions a, b, and c,
even if there is no enemy in contact to its front) ② Figure 16a on page 25.This shows an example of both mutual side-edge and corner-to-corner overlap positions. It does not say that these are illegal, and you cannot end a move phase in these positions. (Although it fails to mention just how they ended in these positions, Bows and Cv do not pursue) ③ Adding words that are not there.Page 10 “When Overlapped or Overlapping” specifically says:- “An element not in frontal close combat but in mutual right-to-right or left-to-left front-corner contact with any enemy element (except Ps or SCh) overlaps this… Enemies in mutual flank-edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.” Nowhere in the rules does it say you can only end a move phase in an overlap position if the enemy is first contacted frontally. (I don’t know what DBA 2.2 says, as I no longer have a copy, but this is what the current DBA 3.0 says) ------------------------------------- No doubt there will be other players that disagree with this… …but they will have to find their own ways of addressing the three items above without breaking them or adding extra words. |
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Post by chaotic on Jun 6, 2021 22:24:13 GMT
Opinions seem to differ Bob. Page 9 of the 3.0 rules provides as follows:
At the end of the bound’s movement phase the contacting element or at least one element of a contacting group must be lined-up with an enemy element, either;
(a) in full mutual front edge contact,
(b) in full front edge to rear edge contact, or
(c) in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact, or
(d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap (see p.10).
Case (d) explicitly permits corner contact with an enemy element "but in overlap". The question seems to rest on whether an element can be "in overlap" if the enemy is not engaged in melee. In my experience, nobody here (Australia) objects to moving an element into corner contact with an unengaged enemy. However I have seen the rule interpreted differently when watching internet games.
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Post by bob on Jun 6, 2021 22:55:00 GMT
Stevie, thanks for the comments. I quoted the 2.2 rule in my original note compare that to the 3.0 rule.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jun 7, 2021 12:18:20 GMT
I have never seen it played this way, but I am not opposed as long as the FAQ group agrees and makes a ruling.
Until then, we will continue to play the way we always have for consistency.
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Post by paulisper on Jun 7, 2021 19:49:59 GMT
I have never seen it played this way, but I am not opposed as long as the FAQ group agrees and makes a ruling. Until then, we will continue to play the way we always have for consistency. This is one of the few times I find myself saying ‘we don’t play it that way in the UK’ when I watch your videos... P |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jun 9, 2021 21:12:42 GMT
Hi all, thanks for the post, this really need to be addressed by the FAQ committee! FWIW, I agree that moving into overlap without contacting frontally first with another element should be allowed. The passable gap rule page 8, tactical moves, paragraph 2, says "A tactical move by a single element...can pass through any gap its leading edge (not necessarily its leading edge) can fit through ...." so passing through a gap one element wide is allowed even if the move would leave the moving element in side to side contact (overlap) with the elements on the flanks. No need to contact the flanking elements frontally first.
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Post by stevie on Jun 10, 2021 4:27:25 GMT
Well spotted Chrishumphreys. 👍
Yes, page 8, “Tactical Moves”, second paragraph, first sentence, says that a
single element can move through any gaps that are large enough.
It also goes on to say that Tactical Moves cannot be used to break-off combat,
but it doesn’t say that you can’t use a Tactical Move to end a move phase in an
overlap position unless the enemy is already frontally engaged.
Perhaps, after years of playing by the DBA 2.2 rules, some players have failed to
notice that the ending a move phase in an overlap position has been changed
in DBA 3.0.
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Post by ronisan on Jun 10, 2021 13:58:10 GMT
Hi Bob, I disagree with „team Stevie“. But unfortunately I‘m in holidays and I didn‘t take the rule book with me. Next week I‘ll be back home and I‘ll be able to explain why it is not legal to contact an enemy element corner to corner without that enemy being in frontal edge contact (at the end of the movement bound)! Cheers, Ronald.
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Post by ronisan on Jun 10, 2021 14:05:27 GMT
@ chrishumphreys
Well as you said by yourself: your element is allowed to pass through(!) a 1BW wide gap! That‘s a legal move. But ending your elements move in mutual side edge to side edge contact (left and right) between two enemy elements is an illegal move/contact! Cheers Ronald
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Post by nangwaya on Jun 11, 2021 11:59:30 GMT
So there will be a definitive answer from the FAQ team at some point?
I just want to make sure that when we play the DBA tournament at CanGames (not for another 346 days, so lots of time for us), that we are doing it right.
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jun 12, 2021 3:03:57 GMT
@ chrishumphreys Well as you said by yourself: your element is allowed to pass through(!) a 1BW wide gap! That‘s a legal move. But ending your elements move in mutual side edge to side edge contact (left and right) between two enemy elements is an illegal move/contact! Cheers Ronald Hi Ronald, Thanks for your post, I'm not sure where the rules say you have to come out the other side when you pass through a gap, even if you stop 1mm past the two front corners you have already passed through a gap, I don't think passing through a gap follows the same logic as an interpenetration where you have to have a clear space immediately behind. Regards Chris |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jun 12, 2021 3:04:54 GMT
Hi all,
There are three things I would like some clarity on in terms of the way this is played and when this eventually gets put through the FAQ machine.
1 In moving to contact (d) we mean no enemy in front of the contactor right? not the contacted.
2 In fig 10 the cavalry elements stop short prior to contact ie where they are in the diagram right? They stop short of making contact with a flank or rear but end touching the enemy elements as depicted and you can sneak up behind an element and touch it with a front corner to stop it recoiling.
3 In the case where one isolated element advances to make front corner to front corner contact with another isolated element it does not initiate combat because the front corner is not an edge right? Or does it automatically get sucked across 1BW into front edge contact (if so you could move into combat with an element without ever entering its threat zone (is this what we want)?)
I would welcome everyone's thoughts on these old chestnuts.
Regards
Chris
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Post by jim1973 on Jun 12, 2021 4:08:01 GMT
There is a great example on Tony's video today about corner/side contact (Book 1 battles). Watch the video of the combat from the 35th minute. This will clearly explain their view and they are consistent throughout their games. I don't interpret the rules that way. I think side-to-side and corner-to-corner contact are allowed whenever, via tactical moves. They are not contact to front as they do not lead to combat and we see that throughout the game via combat outcomes. This video will allow people to see the interaction in real time and decide for themselves which interpretation they like. Cheers Jim PS Keep watching until the end of the first battle as there are some great other examples of moving into contact. link |
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Post by stevie on Jun 12, 2021 6:24:05 GMT
Hi all, There are three things I would like some clarity on in terms of the way this is played and when this eventually gets put through the FAQ machine. 1 In moving to contact (d) we mean no enemy in front of the contactor right? not the contacted. 2 In fig 10 the cavalry elements stop short prior to contact ie where they are in the diagram right? They stop short of making contact with a flank or rear but end touching the enemy elements as depicted and you can sneak up behind an element and touch it with a front corner to stop it recoiling.
3 In the case where one isolated element advances to make front corner to front corner contact with another isolated element it does not initiate combat because the front corner is not an edge right? Or does it automatically get sucked across 1BW into front edge contact (if so you could move into combat with an element without ever entering its threat zone (is this what we want)?)
I would welcome everyone's thoughts on these old chestnuts.
Regards
Chris
I’d like to answer the points raised by Chris in the reverse order, if I may. 3. Yes, corner-to-corner contact does not initiate close combat or conforming. The FAQ says:- “To force conforming you must contact it with your front-edge in most cases, not your corner” (See ancientwargaming.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/dba_faq_q1_2020_final.pdf ) 2. There is no such thing as an ‘illegal contact’ in DBA (“what are you talking about Stevie!” 🤪 ). It’s the failure to conform into one of the four legal end-of-move-phase positions that is illegal, otherwise the initial contact made by the Light Horse in Figure 12a would be illegal. The reason why the Figure 10 examples cannot end a move phase in the positions shown is because they have run out of movement, and are unable to conform as per Page 9 “Contacting The Enemy”. If they had a bit more movement they could have conformed, just like Figure 12a does, but since they didn’t they cannot end the move phase in those positions…that is why they are ‘illegal’. 1. Now this is a tricky one. The Page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” section specifically describes the four legal end-of-move-phase positions allowed… …but the phrase “(d) with no enemy to its front” is describing when you can claim the effect of an overlap, i.e. you cannot claim a corner-to-corner overlap if your front-edge is in contact with someone else (see Page 10, “Close Combat”, third paragraph. And see also Figure 19b - the Pike cannot assist the Elephant with an overlap because it is already engaged with the Blade to it’s front). Frankly, the Page 9 phrase “(d) with no enemy to its front” is in the wrong place. It’s just repeating what Page 10 says…but it’s in the section describing end-of-move-phase positions. Muddying the 'end of move phase positions’ with when you can ' claim the overlap effect’ like this just causes confusion. Anyway, nowhere in the rules does it say you can only end a move phase in an overlap position if the enemy is first contacted frontally. It might have said that in DBA 2.2…but then DBA 2.2 also allowed breaking-off and blocking ZOC, and players wouldn’t apply those rules to DBA 3.0 would they (at least, I hope not!). |
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