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Post by chrishumphreys on Jun 12, 2021 21:06:46 GMT
Hi Stevie,
Thanks for your quick response.
1. Not quite sure I agree it is redundant, I think (d) is to cover the case where two elements contact the front edge of a single element, the single element slides to conform to one of them (a) and the other is left in overlap as (d). Both initially made contact so have to end in one of (a)-(d). Hence no enemy in front of the contactor, (I also suggest that this is all (d) should be used for).
2. I am still not clear, do they in fact fail to conform and thus end their move in the positions shown in fig 10 as I suggest, or do they stop short ie not touching. This is a point that is used to argue for not allowing side edge and corner-corner contact without initial front contact, the topic of this thread.
3. I could not agree more.
I know this is an old debate and I was hoping for it to be resolved in the 2021 FAQ which didn't happen. Are there any plans for a FAQ update soon or is it going to be Jan 2022 at the earliest?
Regards
Chris
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Post by stevie on Jun 13, 2021 8:31:34 GMT
2. I am still not clear, do they in fact fail to conform and thus end their move in the positions shown in fig 10 as I suggest, or do they stop short ie not touching. This is a point that is used to argue for not allowing side edge and corner-corner contact without initial front contact, the topic of this thread. Well, all wargame rules, be they ancient, Napoleonic, or modern, has to address the issue of making contact and actually touching the enemy. This is done in two parts: (i) Making legitimate physical contact. (ii) The effects of legitimate contact.(i) Making legitimate physical contact:- Hard Contact is when one side or the other has their front-edge touching the enemy. They must also end the Move Phase with their front-corner touching the enemy’s corner. This is performed by the party that has the responsibility of doing the conforming. (i.e. the page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” positions a, b, and c) Soft Contact is when a front-edge is not involved; just side-to-side or front corner-to-corner (i.e. the page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” position d) (ii) The effects of legitimate contact:- Hard Contact triggers conforming and prevents either party from breaking-off and moving away. This kind of contact on the flank or rear also causes destruction during a recoil. Soft Contact does not trigger conforming and either party may use Tactical Moves to move away. Both kinds of contact inflicts a -1 combat penalty on the affected troops. Using these axioms we can see that all the Cavalry elements in Figure 10 fail (i) above. At the end of the Move Phase, they (being single elements) have the responsibility of conforming, but none of them are in ‘Hard Contact’ positions (with both front-edges AND front-corners touching), nor are they in ‘Soft Contact’ positions either (with just side-to-side or like front-corners touching). Therefore, their final positions as shown are illegal. So they cannot end the Move Phase touching the enemy, and must stop short instead. Basically, the golden rule is fully described in page 9 “Contacting The Enemy”… …at the end of the Move Phase someone has to be in positions a, b, c, or d or you can’t touch the enemy. (And this is before Turning-To-Face comes into play) |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jun 13, 2021 21:19:07 GMT
Thanks Stevie, wonderfully clear now, sorry to make work for you in a topic that has been previously worked to death. The Stopping short rule, > 1nm also means you cant contact the rear of an element with a corner to stop it recoiling at least once, (eg fig 10 Y and B). May I assume that if Y ends up contacting the front corner of B with its rear edge as shown in fig 10 as a result of a recoil move by Y then neither Y nor B would conform. Thanks again, Chris.
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Post by stevie on Jun 13, 2021 22:20:37 GMT
Ah…that is a very good question Chris. Yes, in Figure 10 what happens if Auxiliary ‘Y’ had recoiled and its rear-edge had accidentally bumped into the the front-corner of Cavalry ‘B’? Fortunately it appears that good old Page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” has the answer.  Page 9, “Contacting The Enemy”, first paragraph, the very last sentence says:- “Elements contacted this bound by enemy or whose front-edge is still in contact when combat ends automatically conform if necessary.” (Note that it says “automatically”, which I assume means “instantly”) But in the second paragraph, the very last sentence says:- “Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact, contacted elements conform on contact.” Soooo (and this is very speculative), the sequence of events appears to be as follows:- Aux ‘Y’ recoils and its rear-edge accidentally bumps into the the front-corner of Cav ‘B’… Cav ‘B’ instantly conforms to the rear-edge of Aux ‘Y’, with corners touching corners… Next bound, after the end of the Move Phase, Aux ‘Y’ will turn-to-face Cav ‘B’… …and neither element can move away, as it’s a ‘Hard Contact’ involving a front-edge. Could someone please confirm the above conclusion, or have I gone totally bonkers! 🤪 |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 14, 2021 12:25:39 GMT
There was a lengthy debate about this, last year I think.
Basically, there are two schools of thought.
Them wot says you can…and them wot says you can’t. 
I happen to belong to party that says you can.
My reasons for believing this are as follows.
① Ending the move phase in a legal position.
Page 9 “Moving Into Contact With The Enemy” gives the 4 legal end-of-move-phase positions:-
(a) in full mutual front-edge contact (sliding so corners touch), or
(b) in full front-edge to rear-edge contact (corners touching), or
(c) in front-edge to side-edge contact (front corners touching), or
(d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in an overlap position.
(and there are two types of overlap: mutual side-edge to side-edge, or corner-to-corner)
If due to a lack of movement ending in 1 of these 4 positions is not possible, the move can’t happen.
(So ending in a overlap is simply a legal end-of-move-phase position, just like positions a, b, and c,
even if there is no enemy in contact to its front)
② Figure 16a on page 25.
This shows an example of both mutual side-edge and corner-to-corner overlap positions.
It does not say that these are illegal, and you cannot end a move phase in these positions.
(Although it fails to mention just how they ended in these positions, Bows and Cv do not pursue)
③ Adding words that are not there.
Page 10 “When Overlapped or Overlapping” specifically says:-
“An element not in frontal close combat but in mutual right-to-right or left-to-left front-corner
contact with any enemy element (except Ps or SCh) overlaps this…
Enemies in mutual flank-edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.”
Nowhere in the rules does it say you can only end a move phase in an overlap position if the enemy
is first contacted frontally.
(I don’t know what DBA 2.2 says, as I no longer have a copy, but this is what the current DBA 3.0 says)
-------------------------------------
No doubt there will be other players that disagree with this…
…but they will have to find their own ways of addressing the
three items above without breaking them or adding extra words. Hello everybody,
now it's time to place my point of view to all this like it's explained in the rules! The sequence of play shows us the four phases of each bound: 1) PIP dicing 2) Tactical moves (here we'll talk about "moving into contact with enemy") 3) Shooting 4) Close Combat + outcome moves (here we'll talk about recoil, flee, pursuit)
It is important to be aware of the difference between phase 2) and phase 4)!
① Ending the move phase in a legal position. I agree with stevie in a), b) and c). But not in d)! What overlap/overlapping is, is explained on page 10 (Chapter CLOSE COMBAT). Why? Because overlap generates a tactical factor ... which is only used in and which therefore needs a close combat (in form of an element being in front edge to front edge contact with the element being overlapped! So - no close combat -> no tactical factor to the element overlapped -> no overlap!
② Figure 16a on page 25. No - it doesn't show any overlap at all! The situation can't be "at the end of the movement bound", because none of the three elements would be allowed to move into such a position. If we were in the movement bound of the Wb+Cv and it's player would have one PIP left to move a third element in front edge to front edge contact with the Bw ... then the Bw would be overlapped on both sides at the end of the movement phase!
③ Adding words that are not there. Figure 16c explains the corner-to-corner overlap and the mutual-flank-edge-overlap! Because Ps is an exeption, let's exchange the Ps elements by e.g. Sp. If we ad a third Sp-element in front edge contact with Ax B ... then the overlap for element X ceases to exist. But the overlap for element Y still exists. So B generates a -1 overlap to Y ... whether B is in close combat or not! And Y would generate an -1 overlap to B ... whether B is in close combat or not!
Nowhere in the rules does it say you can only end a move phase in an overlap position if the enemy
is first contacted frontally. Not first but "at the end of the movement bound"!
Cheers Ronald
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Post by stevie on Jun 14, 2021 14:55:59 GMT
Welcome back from holiday Ronald. I’m going to let others answer your points, as I’ve already made mine clear. All I will say is that nowhere, absolutely nowhere, in the DBA 3.0 rules does it say:- “You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.” Yet Phil Barker had ample opportunity to do so:- …he could have said it in “Tactical Moves” where he says you can’t break-off from combat (but he didn’t)… …he could have said it in “Moving Into Contact” when listing the (d) overlap position (but he didn’t)… …he could have said it in “Close Combat” when describing the overlap effects (but he didn’t)… …he could have said it in “Tactical Factors” when mentioning the -1 penalty (but he didn’t)… …he could have said it in “Figure 16a” by saying that the positions shown are illegal (but he didn’t)… …indeed, as Bob in his first post pointed out, it has been deliberately removed from DBA 3.0… Good grief…how many times must he avoid saying it before players realise it's not present? To quote British comedian Rowan Atkinson of Blackadder fame:- “It’s like a blind man…in a dark room…looking for a black cat…that isn’t there…”  |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 14, 2021 16:22:34 GMT
Well Stevie, you don‘t have to write „“You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.”
because it‘s only an overlap position, when it is supporting a close combat! No close combat ... no overlap position just s.th. Like figure 16a.
Cheers Ronald
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Post by Simon on Jun 14, 2021 17:02:37 GMT
Concerning diagram 16a, I wonder if this does show the positions at the end of the movement phase. I think so because the supporting text discusses what ranged and close combat is possible and I don't see any point in considering that until the end of the movement phase...
Simon
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 14, 2021 17:07:30 GMT
Well Stevie, you don‘t have to write „“You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.” because it‘s only an overlap position, when it is supporting a close combat! No close combat ... no overlap position just s.th. Like figure 16a. Cheers Ronald Following that line of argument, an element would not be allowed to move into mutual right-to-right or left-to-left front corner with enemy Psiloi or enemy Scythed Chariots even if the enemy in question was in close combat on its front edge. I take the contrary and believe such a move is allowed. |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 14, 2021 18:04:43 GMT
@ menacussecundus
Of course it‘s allowed... Ps and SCh just ignore the tactical factor if being overlapped corner to corner.
Cheers
Ronald
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Post by robert on Jun 14, 2021 18:29:17 GMT
Simple for me its all in the title Fig 10 contacts that are not allowed and in overlap with no one in front contact first is not one of them.
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 14, 2021 18:34:04 GMT
@ menacussecundus Of course it‘s allowed... Ps and SCh just ignore the tactical factor if being overlapped corner to corner. Cheers Ronald Even though it won't be supporting the close combat? I though that was an essential link in the logic. ("No tactical factor to the element overlapped -> no overlap.") |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 14, 2021 18:45:36 GMT
@ Simon
Hi, and you think Cv A in figure 16 just moved into side edge to side edge contact with Bw Y (which in my opinion is not allowed without Bw Y in frontal close combat) and sit there bound after bound without harm, without trouble, ...?😉
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Post by ronisan on Jun 14, 2021 18:57:12 GMT
@ menacussecundus
Hi, that‘s a very good point mentioned here!
That leads us to the idea that Ps and SCh cannot be contacted by a corner to corner overlap! You must grab those guys with a mutual flank edge overlap🤔
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jun 14, 2021 21:31:09 GMT
Well Stevie, you don‘t have to write „“You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.” because it‘s only an overlap position, when it is supporting a close combat! No close combat ... no overlap position just s.th. Like figure 16a. Cheers Ronald Dear Ronald, Thanks for your posts, I'll write for Stevie. This really should have been sorted out by the FAQ people in January, perhaps Co-Vid got in the way, I don't know, but we are all using up a lot of time on this. Here with three points for you to consider (my opinions only, I am new to the forum): 1 Ronald, the bit I have quoted from you is one of four ways (way (d)) an element can sit after moving into contact with its front edge (contacting with a front edge for a group, with a corner for a single element not in bad going (figs 10 and 12c)). It applies when a group of N+1 moves into a group on N elements frontally, all of them making front edge contact and hence legally making contact with a front edge so one of (a) to (d) must happen. N of the elements line up as (a) front edge in contact, the last one slides sideways out of contact into an overlap position (d), this is what (d) is for. 2 Moving into front corner to front corner contact is not moving into contact as established in the FAQ, it does not initiate combat. It is a tactical move, so (a) to (d) don't apply. 3 The definition of overlap on page 10 does not require close combat as a prerequisite as suggest in the quote, in fact the opposite, it says enemies in mutual side contact are in overlap whether in close combat or not. Indeed in the first line it says that left front corner to right front contact with any element constitutes an overlap (stress on any) as long as the element doing the overlapping is not in close combat and this is the way it has been played for years. IMHO I think that, (unlike 2.2 where it was expressly not allowed), the rules do not stop a move to such an overlap position (flank overlap or front corners contact) as a tactical move. By the way in one of Tony's recent videos where an element could not move straight back in a tactical move because it would come into mutual flank contact with another element shows some of the problems that arise with your interpretation. Youtube: Book 1 DBA 3.0 - Tony and Mitch Live play! around 40 mins in. Regards Chris |
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