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Post by ronisan on Jun 24, 2021 16:50:32 GMT
@ menacussecundus
Hi,
any element (or troop class!) refers to the sentence before, where the corner-to-corner overlap any element (or troop class!) except Ps and SCh is described. The following sentence explain just what a mutual flank edge-to-flank edge overlap is (even for Ps and SCh). No more. No less. All this takes part in and supports a frontal close combat (of an obviously friendly, adjacent element)! But in 5. there is no close combat. So there is neither a corner-to-corner overlap nor a mutual flank edge-to-flank edge overlap.
Cheers
Ronald
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Post by stevie on Jun 24, 2021 17:28:45 GMT
So what on earth does “mutually overlap each other, whether in close combat or not” mean?! I have to agree yet again with Menacussecundus.Mutual side contact is a legal end-of-move-phase position, that has no effect on combat if no-one is being frontally engaged...and the same goes for corner-to-corner overlaps. It’s just a legal position that could cause a combat effect…not a movement restriction. Page 9 “Moving Into Contact With Enemy” us tells how to end a move phase. Page 10 “Combat When Overlapped” tells us the effects of being in certain positions. You Ronald may want to combine combat and overlaps and movement into one single item, but it’s not what the current DBA 3.0 rules say. By the way, I’m still waiting for someone to point out to me where exactly does it say:- “You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged”... ...cos them words ain't in my copy of the rules. I want to play by what Phil Barker DOES say…not what others think he SHOULD have said. (Well, apart from House Rules that is…
...but at least I have the honesty to admit that by using a House Rule I’m not playing-by-the-rules-as-written)  |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 24, 2021 18:14:41 GMT
But the rules don't actually say "any element". They say "any enemies". They also say that the overlap is mutual - unlike right-to-right or left-to-left front corner overlaps where only one of the combatants is overlapped (unless is it a Ps or a SCh). And they say that this applies whether they are in close combat or not.
Taking your example 4, I would say that not only is XXX overlapped by BBB, but BBB is also overlapped by XXX. (In practice, this is of no consequence because BBB is not in close combat and so is not disadvantaged.) However, XXX then destroys AAA, leaving us with your example 5. In my view, the two elements still overlap each other. I realize, however, that I am unlikely to persuade you of this.
Edit: Cross-posted with stevie's reply. (I type extremely slowly.)
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 7:00:07 GMT
But the rules don't actually say "any element". They say "any enemies". They also say that the overlap is mutual - unlike right-to-right or left-to-left front corner overlaps where only one of the combatants is overlapped (unless is it a Ps or a SCh). And they say that this applies whether they are in close combat or not. Taking your example 4, I would say that not only is XXX overlapped by BBB, but BBB is also overlapped by XXX. (In practice, this is of no consequence because BBB is not in close combat and so is not disadvantaged.) However, XXX then destroys AAA, leaving us with your example 5. In my view, the two elements still overlap each other. I realize, however, that I am unlikely to persuade you of this. Edit: Cross-posted with stevie's reply. (I type extremely slowly.) Hello Menacussecundus, "overlap" is a disadvantage in CC (close combat)! That's why it is explained on page 10 (CC). It can only happen to the overlapped (disadvantaged) element and not the overlapping (advantaged) element! A vice versa overlap does only happen, if both sides are in CC (my examples 1 + 3). And a flank-edge-to-flank-edge overlapping element does this ... if in CC (itself) or not. In my example 4, BBB is not overlapped (disadvantaged in CC) ... the only disadvantaged element is XXX. Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 7:15:36 GMT
Hello,
and reading it again (!)
MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY
The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat. At the end of the bound’s movement phase the contacting element or at least one element of a contacting group must be lined-up with an enemy element, either; (a) in full mutual front edge contact, (b) in full front edge to rear edge contact, or (c) in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact, or (d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap (see p.10).
convinces me, that figure 9a shows the correct "moves into contact" (in contrary to earlier statements).
Bd C is "at the end of the movement phase" ... part of "a contacting group" (with Bd A)! Bd C needs Bd A!
And one step further ... Bd C won't be allowed to contact Bw X slightly forward (in mutual side edge contact), because this wouldn't be "a contacting group" with Bd A!
Now you've got some stuff to think about. ;-)
Cheers,
Ronald
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 25, 2021 8:19:20 GMT
Hello, and reading it again (!) MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY
The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat. At the end of the bound’s movement phase the contacting element or at least one element of a contacting group must be lined-up with an enemy element, either; (a) in full mutual front edge contact, (b) in full front edge to rear edge contact, or (c) in front edge to side edge contact with front corners in contact, or (d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap (see p.10).convinces me, that figure 9a shows the correct "moves into contact" (in contrary to earlier statements). Bd C is " at the end of the movement phase" ... part of "a contacting group" (with Bd A)! Bd C needs Bd A!And one step further ... Bd C won't be allowed to contact Bw X slightly forward (in mutual side edge contact), because this wouldn't be "a contacting group" with Bd A!
Now you've got some stuff to think about. ;-)
Cheers,
RonaldAs you say, Bd C wouldn't be part of a contacting group. However, it would be a contacting element. (As someone said earlier in the thread, the rules are sooooo elegant and simple.) |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 8:28:21 GMT
... and the rules got even simpler! :-)
Because figure 9a shows the only possible "moves into contact"!
If Bw X would be contacted by Bd C alone (no other elements involved) there won't be neither a contacting front edge nor a contacting group "at the end of the movement phase".
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Post by stevie on Jun 25, 2021 9:34:51 GMT
convinces me, that figure 9a shows the correct "moves into contact" (in contrary to earlier statements). Bd C is " at the end of the movement phase" ... part of "a contacting group" (with Bd A)! Bd C needs Bd A!And one step further ... Bd C won't be allowed to contact Bw X slightly forward (in mutual side edge contact), because this wouldn't be "a contacting group" with Bd A!…er…Figure 9a does NOT say “Blade-C is part of a contacting group (with Blade-A)”. All it says is:- “Blade-C is lined up opposite Bow-Y, and is in front corner contact with Bow-X and so overlaps it.” There is no mention of:- “You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.”Page 9 option (d) says:- “with no enemy in contact to its front, but in an overlap (see p.10).” There is no mention of:- “You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.”Page 10 Combat When Overlapped or Overlapping says:- “An element not in frontal close combat but in mutual right-to-right or left-to-left front corner contact with any enemy (except Ps or SCh) overlaps this… Any enemies in any mutual flank edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.” There is no mention of:- “You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.”I think you are assuming that ANY kind of contact must be part of some sort of close combat. But that is not the case. An element recoiling or pursuing could end up in mutual side or corner-to-corner contact… …but these positions on their own will not cause combat - only front-edges cause combat. So it IS possible to be in 'contact' without causing, triggering, or needing frontal close combat. And NOWHERE, absolutely NOWHERE, in the rules or diagrams does it say:- “You can only end a Move Phase in an overlap position if the enemy front-edge is being engaged.”
(Apparently the old DBA 2.2 rules did say this…but it has been deliberately removed from DBA 3.0) |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 25, 2021 9:55:15 GMT
Fig 9a is not exhaustive and does not show every possible move into contact. It shows some. For example, Bd C could clearly move to contact Bw Y - or Bd D could have piled into the rear of X.
Moving a front edge into contact with the enemy results in combat, but there is nothing in the section on moving into contact with the enemy which says that there has to be a prospect of combat before a move which ends in mutual flank edge contact is permitted.
Edit: Once again, stevie has made the point more quickly - and more eloquently - than I was able to. (I was called away in mid-reply.)
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Post by stevie on Jun 25, 2021 10:30:18 GMT
I know Menacussecundus…”When a man’s gotta poo a man’s gotta poo…” Ha, ha, ha!  |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 25, 2021 10:52:39 GMT
I know Menacussecundus…”When a man’s gotta poo a man’s gotta poo…” Ha, ha, ha! Not quite so eloquent this time. |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 12:11:11 GMT
Hello Stevie,
Jun 25, 2021 11:34:51 GMT 2 stevie said:
I think you are assuming that ANY kind of contact must be part of some sort of close combat.
Yes, every „move into contact with enemy“ … every move which costs PIPs … every move which is checked at the end of the movement phase to be legal … every move which is ordered by you as the general!
But that is not the case.
It is.
An element recoiling or pursuing could end up in mutual side or corner-to-corner contact…
Yes, but that‘s not a „move into contact with enemy“ … those are outcome moves, compulsory moves, which don’t cost PIPs and don‘t take place in the movement phase … these are no moves ordered by you as the general! See page 8: „Tactical moves … It must not be confused with outcome moves …“)
…but these positions on their own will not cause combat - only front-edges cause combat.
Exactly! :-)
So it IS possible to be in 'contact' without causing, triggering, or needing frontal close combat.
I don‘t think we get a consensus in this.
Cheers,
Ronald
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 25, 2021 12:24:14 GMT
Hello Stevie, I don‘t think we get a consensus in this. Cheers, Ronald We might reach a consensus, but unanimity looks unlikely. Happy gaming. Menacus S |
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Post by ronisan on Jun 25, 2021 13:06:45 GMT
Unanimity … I had to look after this word in my dictionary. :-)
At least I did expand my vocabulary. :-)))
Thank you guys and happy gaming.
Cheers,
Ronald
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Post by stevie on Jun 25, 2021 15:33:03 GMT
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