Moving to overlap.

Ah…good old page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” has the answer to that Jim.

You cannot use a Tactical Move to end a move phase in such a position.
Only (a), (b), (c) AND (d) are allowed…and having anything other than a
front-edge touching an enemy rear just ain’t on the list and is a no-no.

(Of course, it could still happen accidentally due to a recoil)

@ stevie
Thanks stevie. I thought p9,point d) was specific about corner to corner overlap. But it just says overlap and refers to p10 to define overlap. So I'm definitely with the "not requiring frontal contact" view of the rules

@ ronisan
It seems a stretch to say you can move through but just can't stop, particularly as the rules state "straight back" indicting no change in formation. Does the enemy just wave as you pass?

This interpretation, which is just as criticized, also doesn't lead to complicated or unsolvable problems. It is also easy and makes all moves, tactical and outcome, follow the same pattern. This makes the game even simpler.

But if the author did specifically address this issue then we would be best to hear from the playtesters and then be in a better position to decide which interpretation we wish to play.

Cheers

Jim

Yes, page 10 is titled “Close Combat”…
…and the paragraph that concerns us is titled “Combat When Overlapping”…
…giving us the effects of being in certain positions.

But before you can roll the dice for combat, you have to be in a legal position.

And that is covered by the page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” section…
…which comes before the “Close Combat” section and the positional effects.

(“The horse pulls the cart…the cart doesn't push the horse” )

But I am consistent. I don't think the elements are interacting in terms of combat when in overlap because only front edge contact allows combat. So whether they touch in overlap, side-to-side or corner-to-corner, outcome or tactical move, it's one and the same. Your position has a tactical move rule if you end in contact, tactical move rule of you brush edges but don't end in contact, and an outcome move rule that are different. Explain to me why troops shrug their shoulders if the element pursues after combat but not a tactical move even though neither is in a Threat Zone. 
I would say if they are not threatened then maybe they are OK to move.
But each to their own.

Cheers

Jim

Hi all,

In the absence of a FAQ on this issue I would like to propose a few Q and A of my own in the hope they can be either disputed, rejected, agreed or amended and that a clarification can be published in the next FAQ.

Q: Are the front corners of a element part of the front edge?

A: No. Front Corners and the front edge are consistently treated differently in the rules. We see this principle apply to threat zones where the front edge generates TZ but the front corners do not and in legal and illegal contacts where contacts with a front edge are legal and contacts with a front corner are not, see fig 10 and FAQ "Moving into contact with enemy".

Q: Do you have to contact with a front edge to “move into contact with enemy (page 9)” and trigger outcomes (a) to (d)?

A: Yes. The rule on page 9 specifically requires a front edge to move into contact with an enemy to “Move into Contact”

Q: Is moving into an overlap position considered to be a “move into contact with enemy”?

A: No, it’s the other way around, a move into contact with enemy can result in an element ending in an overlap position, (see the next question). Note Fig 10 requires elements A B and C to stop short because the elements concerned are all attempting to move into contact. They could still move into an overlap position, for example, Element A may have the option to move to an overlap position in either front corner-corner to front corner or mutual side edge contact with X if it has the move.

Q: What is (d) for on page 9?

A: (d) is to allow the possibility for an element that has made partial front edge contact with an enemy front edge to slide out of contact and move into an overlap position as it conforms, (see below and see fig 13b). This is one way to end in an overlap position but it is not the only way.

Q: Can a player move into an overlap position using a tactical move if the element being overlapped in not in close combat?

A: Yes, with the exception that CP, Lit, CWg, Art and WWg cannot move into any contact with enemy. An element or group moving into an overlap position without first making front edge contact does so as a tactical move. The tactical move rules on page 8 allow any element to move into any gap its front edge can fit through and because its front edge is not moving into contact it is not covered by the restrictions (a) -(d) on page 9. As a tactical move an element or group is allowed to move into an overlap position regardless of whether the element being overlapped has a close combat opponent or not (see line three paragraph 3 of close combat on page 10). A tactical move can end in mutual side edge contact, move past a side edge and beyond the rear corner, or stop with front corner in contact with the front corner, the subject of this thread.

Q: Does providing overlap by being in mutual side edge contact or front corner to front corner contact constitute close combat?

A: No. If being in overlap constitutes close combat, as has been suggested, then an element in an overlap position would be unable to make any tactical move (page 8 tactical moves line 2) even if it arrived there through an outcome move (this is worse than being in a TZ!). The idea that mutual side edge contact must result in combat is not in the rules, anywhere. Only a front edge can fight (see fig 16a). While the soldiers on the flank of a unit in mutual contact with another such flank may not be shaking hands and indeed may well be killing each other (as well as affecting the morale of troops on either side who are in front edge combat, hence -1 for overlap), the numbers engaged on the flank are negligible compared to the numbers in the front rank and so the effect of any combat can be ignored. As stated on page 2 a typical element represents 1/12 of an army but is typically only 6-12 ranks deep even if it is close armed foot. The argument for not allowing side edge contact as a tactical move because needs to conform to the moving into combat rules on page 9 is not what the rules say neither is it historically justified in my opinion. How about the elephants at Zama? Did they stop at the first corner of legionaries after the Romans had opened their ranks to let them through and say to the them, "Nice try Scipio but we have to stop here because this is an overlap position and our front corners are touching"?

Thanks for reading, I hope the FAQ people can have their Meeting soon and resolve this with some clear Q and A.

Read on in the Appendix below for some examples.

Regards

Chris

Appendix

1 Here is why (d) is in the rules
A group of three elements AAA move onto front edge contact with a group of two elements BBB. All three elements of AAA have made front edge contact with BBB and so one of (a) to (d) must happen for each. The AAA elements slide left and conform leaving the left hand element in position (d) overlap, and the other two in position (a)
before

    BBB BBB
AAA AAA AAA

After

       BBB BBB
AAA AAA AAA

2
A: Moving into overlap is a tactical move. If the two elements of AAA below move into contact with two elements BBB and then the single element moves up into overlap this is a tactical move, it is not an example of (d) on page 9. (the two moves can be done in any order).
B: The reason why you can't move the rear element of a group that is two deep into an overlap with enemy to it's front is because moving into overlap is a tactical move and obeys the TZ laws. The element has to go back to its rear and out of the TZ first.
A) Before              B) Before

       BBB BBB             CCC
                                 DDD
       AAA AAA             DDD                                   DDD (in the TZ of CCC) moving into overlap is not allowed under (d) because moving into an overlap position except by sliding to conform is a tactical move.
AAA

After                    After
                                   CCC
                                   DDD DDD
       BBB BBB
AAA AAA AAA

3
Finally, I believe this should be a legal move that the interpretation above would allow and which is unhistorical if it isn't. BBB = Blade, AAA = Art, CCC = Cavalry.
A group of three cavalry are facing two elements of blades with an element of Artillery set back, one base width behind. The Cavalry and Blades are in each others TZ and lined up. It is the cavalry turn.
The centre cavalry element should be able to charge the Artillery in close combat without the two cavalry elements next to it having to move into combat with the Blades first.
Before

       AAA
BBB        BBB

CCC CCC CCC

After

       AAA
BBB CCC BBB

CCC        CCC