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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 21, 2019 19:05:25 GMT
A better search would have answered this earlier...
"Extra Plough" means you must have plough already picked.
Phil stated as such.
This would seem to cause some weirdness with Arable terrain as BUA would not be allowed with plough...
Except for that fact that you can pick a BUA and 2 Plough as your compulsory features. Each counts as one pick.
How do I know this? A simple search of the design emails that by accident picked up the thread.
2 Plough as a one compulsory pick wasn't Phil's idea. It was mine. I had forgotten this in the intervening years.
The problem was that a single piece of Plough wasn't large enough to produce much effect on a game. While liking the concept I had struggled during play-testing to make it relevant. I suggested to Phil that we replace "BUA or Plough" with "BUA or 2 Plough" as a way of forcing more plough on the battlefield. The context was that this was a single compulsory pick that replaced the (1) Plough choice.
The conversation occurred on 8/02/2012...
So, one could have both a BUA and 2 Plough as compulsory picks...
This gives the "extra plough" meaning and context.
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Aug 21, 2019 20:09:11 GMT
In other words...”this week’s special offer, buy one get one free; 2 compulsory plough for the price of one!”.  |
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 21, 2019 20:20:06 GMT
No money down! Limited offer!
Joe Collins
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Post by Les1964 on Aug 21, 2019 23:21:36 GMT
Except for that fact that you can pick a BUA and 2 Plough as your compulsory features.
Joe Collins
That's not what it says on page 6 in the rule book , it says 1 BUA or 2 Plough , so that's what we have to abide by SIMPLES . If it had been wrote like this , BUA or 1 - 2 plough , that would be different . In the end trying to quote an email for PB , is just as bad as the peoples waving letters from him , during a WRG ( whatever edition) ancient comp !  |
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 22, 2019 0:24:33 GMT
There is a problem with your post. The email is not from Phil Barker. It is from me. He agreed and included my idea whole cloth.
The idea was to replace 1 plough as a single choice with 2 plough as a single choice.
You of course can play the rules any way you want. You of course will struggle with the meaning of "extra plough".
Joe Collins
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 22, 2019 5:55:00 GMT
OK...so just reading it afresh and going through my interpretation without the details in the OP, I would say it means.
I must have 1-2 compulsory features - either a BUA or 2 Plough.
I must have 2-3 optional features chosen from River, Difficult Hills, Gentle Hills, Plough, Enclosures, Road, Waterway, Scrub, Boggy.
So for example I could have A BUA as the mandatory piece and a plough and River as my optional pieces.
That is how I have been playing it. Is that how others have played it?
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Post by stevie on Aug 22, 2019 6:36:54 GMT
I think Obadiah that what Joe is saying is the Arable 2 compulsory Plough should come as a pair,
for just one solitary pick (a bit like a ‘buy-one-get-one-free’ offer). So you could have...
* One compulsory BUA (for just one pick)...
* Two compulsory Plough (for just one pick)...
* or both a BUA (one pick) AND 2 Plough (one pick) as your two compulsory choices.
You couldn’t pick two BUA’s, as only one is allowed on the table, and you couldn’t pick two pairs
of Plough, as three is the maximum allowed.
This was the original intention, but it got worded badly, so many players like myself thought that
the 2 compulsory Plough was two picks, making it impossible to have both compulsory Plough and
a BUA together. And if you only have a BUA and no Plough, how can you have ‘Extra Plough’ as an
optional pick.
‘Extra’ to what?...the word ‘extra’ implies that you already have some, and are adding more to it.
But if compulsory Plough comes as two to a packet, for just one solitary pick, it all makes sense,
and you can never have a single Plough all on its own.
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Post by macbeth on Aug 22, 2019 6:43:28 GMT
OK...so just reading it afresh and going through my interpretation without the details in the OP, I would say it means. I must have 1-2 compulsory features - either a BUA or 2 Plough. I must have 2-3 optional features chosen from River, Difficult Hills, Gentle Hills, Plough, Enclosures, Road, Waterway, Scrub, Boggy. So for example I could have A BUA as the mandatory piece and a plough and River as my optional pieces. That is how I have been playing it. Is that how others have played it? That was how I played it Obadiah and how I advised at my events in Canberra, although to be truthful - I have never felt the need to combine both BUA and Plough onto the one board in the past.
However, Joe is in a much better position to determine the truth of the matter - he was more closely involved in the playtesting from go to whoa.
Joe - I would advise that if you are certain that this is the true and correct interpretation of the rule then it needs to go into the FAQ post haste!!! It needs to be official and without PB publishing either DBA3.1 or an official errata sheet - the FAQ is the most official vehicle we get.
Personally I question the idea that 1 plough is too small to have an effect - could not the same be said of any area terrain feature?? And yet I can put 1 woods in Forest or Tropical; 1 BUA in Arable; 1 piece of rough in Dry and 1 gentle hill in Steppe. Unless the concept behind plough is that only 1 does not allow for taking up so much space on the board that it is more difficult to have a completely open board but with a 1 in 6 chance that the terrain is actually rough.
And I also agree with lesp1964 - an email from PB is not a good way to solve the issue, and neither is an email from someone else with an addendum - "Phil agreed with me".
And finally
If 2 plough is just one pick - can I put down 4 plough for my 2 compulsory features?
Cheers
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Post by Les1964 on Aug 22, 2019 11:06:20 GMT
You of course can play the rules any way you want. You of course will struggle with the meaning of "extra plough". Joe Collins Yes I play RAW not RAI . As for the extra plough if you don't take the 2 compulsory ones , you don't get an EXTRA one , its not that hard . |
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Post by vtsaogames on Aug 22, 2019 11:09:45 GMT
In other words...”this week’s special offer, buy one get one free; 2 compulsory plough for the price of one!”. Act now and we'll throw in this free BUA! |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 22, 2019 12:20:44 GMT
Good news, we will get the word out.
Looks like the only thing we haven't allowed in the past was a BUA AND the two plough at same time.
I have always seen it that you HAD to take BOTH plough if you took one as mandatory - so not a huge change for us how we have been doing it.
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Post by Les1964 on Aug 22, 2019 14:35:49 GMT
So some people are trying say you can have an "extra plough" without out taking a plough ? So why does "Hilly" have 1-2 compulsory difficult hills and optional extra difficult hills , "Forest" and "Tropical" have 1-2 compulsory woods and optional extra woods . So it would seem you must have at least 1 of something to get the extra ones ? BTW here is thread from earlier this year , fanaticus.boards.net/thread/1893/maximum-terrain-features |
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Post by j on Aug 22, 2019 16:08:27 GMT
So some people are trying say you can have an "extra plough" without out taking a plough ? So why does "Hilly" have 1-2 compulsory difficult hills and optional extra difficult hills , "Forest" and "Tropical" have 1-2 compulsory woods and optional extra woods . So it would seem you must have at least 1 of something to get the extra ones ? BTW here is thread from earlier this year , fanaticus.boards.net/thread/1893/maximum-terrain-featuresAs I understand it, Forest & Tropical MUST have at least 1 Woods, Hilly MUST have at least 1 Difficult Hill so they can have an "extra" or 2 (depending on whether they chose 1 or 2 as compulsory) as optional features. There is a maximum of 3 for each of these. It seems that Arable, as it does not have to have ANY Plough (but must take 0 OR 2) as compulsory, can only take an optional "extra" Plough if it has the compulsories. Again a maximum of 3 Plough allowed. Regards, j |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 22, 2019 22:06:56 GMT
[slightly off topic rant following]
And of course all of this points to the thing that makes DBA harder to sell. So much ambiguity in the midst of some of the most confusing uses of the English language that I have ever read. The number of times that myself and others have had to read the rules out loud slowly and then to interpret the writings. It is frustrating....and that is from someone who has been playing since V1.1 - so what does it look like to new comers?
[rant done]
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 22, 2019 22:29:37 GMT
[slightly off topic rant following] And of course all of this points to the thing that makes DBA harder to sell. So much ambiguity in the midst of some of the most confusing uses of the English language that I have ever read. The number of times that myself and others have had to read the rules out loud slowly and then to interpret the writings. It is frustrating....and that is from someone who has been playing since V1.1 - so what does it look like to new comers? [rant done] What I find ironic is that the soldier on the cover of the book looks like he is having a hard time reading and understanding the rules correctly... just like many of us here |
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