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Post by macbeth on Sept 2, 2019 23:15:59 GMT
I meant to put this here yesterday - oops!! To think - if the compulsory for Arable was written as BUA and/or Plough then everything could be catered for Want a BUA and no plough - no problem Want 2 plough and no BUA - no problem Want a BUA and a plough - no problem Want a BUA and 2 plough - no problem - simply choose 1 BUA and 1 plough from the compulsory and 1 extra plough from the optionals Want a BUA and 3 plough - no problems - simply choose 1 BUA and 1 plough from the compulsory and 2 extra plough from the optionals This change would not have even had an effect on the line or page count Gods below
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Post by bob on Sept 3, 2019 4:44:06 GMT
This rule might help with how many pieces of terrain you can have: “Those chosen must include BAD or ROUGH GOING (as defined below) or a River or Waterway, and cannot include more than 1 each of Waterway, River, Oasis, Gully or BUA, or 2 roads, or 3 each of any other feature type. Waterways must be placed first, then compulsory features, then others.”
Some singular features but are plural words. For example difficult Hills is one feature, Hills is one feature, woods is one feature. I don’t understand the problem with “Road.” You can have one road or you can have two roads.
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Post by bob on Sept 3, 2019 4:48:38 GMT
How about the last one...dated October the 19th...the one in the published version of the rules? No-one is asking for a word change, just a different interpretation of what ‘2 Plough’ means. Anyway, why on earth are you asking me for? I was not one of the DBA 3.0 developers. I am not part of the FAQ Team. I have never had any e-mail conversations with Phil Barker. I just happen to think that Joe Collin’s interpretation makes sense... ...and he was a DBA 3.0 developer, he is part of the FAQ Team, and he did talk to Phil about it. Why, don’t you believe him? I guess you forgot that I was on the development team, and in fact got Phil to invite Joe :-) I am on the FAQ team. I have all of Phil‘s correspondence from our years of development. More important I got the co-authors opinion on the topic. Why don’t you believe me?
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 3, 2019 7:58:44 GMT
I believe you Bob!
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Post by stevie on Sept 3, 2019 8:01:47 GMT
So which version do we go with ? PS : this works "August 24 ARABLE 1 BUA or 2 Plough. River, Difficult Hills, Gentle Hills, Woods, Plough, Enclosures, Road, Waterway, Scrub, Boggy." Yes, that would work...but it does mean a ‘word change’ to Phil Barker’s rules (the word ‘extra’ will need to be removed from in front of the optional ‘extra Plough’). “BUA and/or Plough”, as suggested by Macbeth, would also work, if players understand that ‘extra Plough’ means that you must have some Plough to start with in the first place (and the word ‘and/’ needs to be added in front of the ‘or’). But if we are going to make a ‘word change’, then my personal favourite is this:- “1 Plough + 1 BUA or Plough”...so Arable compulsory terrain is always two picks (and if Arable always has some Plough, then there’s no if’s or but’s about having ‘extra Plough’). Even Joe Collins’ interpretation, where the compulsory ‘2 Plough’ is a single pick, really needs a ‘word change’ in order to make it much clearer and understandable (“2 Plough for a single pick and/or 1 BUA for a single pick”) Any of the above would allow both a BUA and Plough to be together on the table, whereas the current method, where you can never have them together, seems pretty absurd Bob. Of course, all this is fairly academic, because as Arnopov and Martin have pointed out, Plough is just about useless as a terrain piece anyway... ...so are we arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Oh, and I believe you Bob... ...so why is it such a mess?...
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Post by j on Sept 3, 2019 9:17:55 GMT
I meant to put this here yesterday - oops!! To think - if the compulsory for Arable was written as BUA and/or Plough then everything could be catered for Want a BUA and no plough - no problem Want 2 plough and no BUA - no problem Want a BUA and a plough - no problem Want a BUA and 2 plough - no problem - simply choose 1 BUA and 1 plough from the compulsory and 1 extra plough from the optionals Want a BUA and 3 plough - no problems - simply choose 1 BUA and 1 plough from the compulsory and 2 extra plough from the optionals This change would not have even had an effect on the line or page count Gods below I guess you'd get the same result from an even smaller change in the wording to "Compulsory features 1 BUA &/or 2 Plough" except it means that, if you don't choose the BUA, you have to choose the 2 Plough option. Regards, j
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Post by jim1973 on Sept 3, 2019 13:22:03 GMT
I lost track of the substance of this thread. The rule for Arable terrain is either a BUA or 2 Plough but not both. This was never written by Phil. "Or" means one thing and _not_ the other. I wrote to Sue about this a while back. I accept her stance on this =================== Compulsory is either 1 BUA or 2 Plough, not both. However more plough is allowed under the optional terrain so he can have a BUA as the compulsory and the 2 plough as optional if he wants this. Sue From: Robert Beattie Sent: Friday, May 03, 2019 7:13 PM To: Sue Laflin Subject: Arable topography Hi, I know Phil is not answering hard questions for DBA, but perhaps he can review a very simple one. ARABLE 1 BUA or 2 Plough. River, Difficult Hills, Gentle Hills, Woods, extra Plough, Enclosures, Road, Waterway, Scrub, Boggy. One player insists that 1 BUA or 2 Plough really means you can take 1 BUA and 2 Plough. This is such a small issue but it is developing into a serious debate. Does Phil mean "EITHER 1 BUA or 2 Plough” or does he mean “1 BUA and/or 2 Plough" Thanks much, keep in touch. Bob Robert Beattie Hi Bob. I do believe you! But looking at Sue's reply it reads as though I can take a BUA as the compulsory choice and Plough as an optional choice. Does that mean we can forget the word "extra" in front of Plough? Cheers Jim
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 3, 2019 21:26:42 GMT
I lost track of the substance of this thread. The rule for Arable terrain is either a BUA or 2 Plough but not both. This was never written by Phil. "Or" means one thing and _not_ the other. I wrote to Sue about this a while back. I accept her stance on this =================== Compulsory is either 1 BUA or 2 Plough, not both. However more plough is allowed under the optional terrain so he can have a BUA as the compulsory and the 2 plough as optional if he wants this. Sue From: Robert Beattie Sent: Friday, May 03, 2019 7:13 PM To: Sue Laflin Subject: Arable topography Hi, I know Phil is not answering hard questions for DBA, but perhaps he can review a very simple one. ARABLE 1 BUA or 2 Plough. River, Difficult Hills, Gentle Hills, Woods, extra Plough, Enclosures, Road, Waterway, Scrub, Boggy. One player insists that 1 BUA or 2 Plough really means you can take 1 BUA and 2 Plough. This is such a small issue but it is developing into a serious debate. Does Phil mean "EITHER 1 BUA or 2 Plough” or does he mean “1 BUA and/or 2 Plough" Thanks much, keep in touch. Bob Robert Beattie Hi Bob. I do believe you! But looking at Sue's reply it reads as though I can take a BUA as the compulsory choice and Plough as an optional choice. Does that mean we can forget the word "extra" in front of Plough? Cheers Jim That appears to be the case. All of the options discussed require a change to the words. This seems to be the least change from the rules as written - removing an unnecessary word, as opposed to adding new words.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 3, 2019 22:20:36 GMT
Oh I don’t know Arnopov...I can think of a very good reason to have lots of Plough. If I have army II/35 Late Macedonians (aggression 1) and my opponent had say I/47 Illyrians (aggression 3), then I’d only have about 1 chance in 6 of being the invader. And as the defender, I’d want as open and empty battlefield as possible so he has nowhere to hide his Auxiliaries in. So I’d definitely pick 3 Plough, all as large as possible, in the hope that as these must extend into an adjacent quarter, there won’t be room for the one obligatory piece of bad going, which I would also make as large as possible and place last so that it gets discarded.
All the Macedonians need is... A teeny hamlet BUA, pop it in a corner, skinniest ever waterway and a road. Job done. Open battlefield, and nowhere to hide...bar a minute hamlet in a corner. Zero chance of 'plough becomes rough going' .* Martin * which terrain pawsBill refers to as a billiard table (or possibly a Smith Billiard Table....) 🙂 Martin, Brilliant! I just played a game with an Arable army and placed a 1 BW square BUA hamlet in one corner and followed that with 2 roads running along the sides of the table - terrain that we called “Dry Martini” terrain to distinguish it from your recommended option using a skinny Water way that we now refer to as “Wet Martini” terrain. What ever it is called it appears legal and doesn’t bother the terrain lawyers hardly at all! i’m thinking of substituting the hamlet for a fort to make a “Wet Martini on the rocks!” Paddy
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Post by arnopov on Sept 3, 2019 23:00:16 GMT
Very funny Paddy,
You could even go for a Skinny Martini, with a .71 BW square hamlet (and the 2 roads). The ultimate in minimalistic terrain.
Did all space work for your army btw?
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 4, 2019 5:41:50 GMT
Very funny Paddy, You could even go for a Skinny Martini, with a .71 BW square hamlet (and the 2 roads). The ultimate in minimalistic terrain. Did all space work for your army btw? I thought “every feature must have both a length and width of at least 1 BW.”
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 4, 2019 6:43:40 GMT
Very funny Paddy, You could even go for a Skinny Martini, with a .71 BW square hamlet (and the 2 roads). The ultimate in minimalistic terrain. Did all space work for your army btw? I thought “every feature must have both a length and width of at least 1 BW.” That's right, Paddy. But length and width are measured at the widest point, which in this case would be across the diagonal connecting the opposite corners of the square.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 4, 2019 7:20:05 GMT
So true!
So we have a “Skinny Martini” which is a 28.4mm square hamlet and 2 x 60 cm lengths of brown string. That’ll hardly break the terrain budget!
Plonk the BUA in a corner with the roads leading out from the BUA to the opposite board edges. This gives a board that is 99.76% good going and I note with amusement more open than can be achieved in Steppe.
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Post by jim1973 on Sept 4, 2019 10:10:19 GMT
So true! So we have a “Skinny Martini” which is a 28.4mm square hamlet and 2 x 60 cm lengths of brown string. That’ll hardly break the terrain budget! Plonk the BUA in a corner with the roads leading out from the BUA to the opposite board edges. This gives a board that is 99.76% good going and I note with amusement more open than can be achieved in Steppe. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. If you made the hamlet as a 41mm cross with each arm the same width as the brown string on a 30 inch board then you may get to 99.96%! On a more serious note, does this indicate that the Arable terrain rules are broken? Or maybe other terrain rules are also easily "cheesed". I hope I'm not alone in wanting attractive boards to play on. Cheers Jim
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Post by stevie on Sept 4, 2019 12:01:15 GMT
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