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Post by menacussecundus on Jan 8, 2022 8:48:56 GMT
Yep, that's what they say, stevie. Now add in the Threat Zones and explain how Red C contacts Blue D without passing through Blue E's TZ. Ha!…because it’s a group, and groups are not forced to split when conforming… …otherwise Figures 13c and 13d would be drawn very differently. Come to think of it, explain how in Figure 13b the Cavalry-C element can slip sideways out of the Spear column’s Threat Zone? Look, it seems this debate has run its course and reached its final conclusion. Many of you want conforming to not be classed as ‘moving’, and are not bothered by all the weird side effects this will bring. So I’ll do the same. I see it as yet another river rules debacle. The rules say “For movement, a river is neither good nor other going.” “Oh no Stevie…Phil Barker’s rules may say it only applies to movement, but we players know better, and we want to also apply it combat as well.” Well now we have another one, where the rules say “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into ANY contact with the enemy.” “Oh no Stevie…Phil Barker’s rules may say they can’t contact an enemy, but we players know better, and we want them to contact when forced to conform.” But for the sake of unity, I give in, I submit, I surrender, you win, and I’ll play it your way. (Although like Galileo is alleged to have muttered under his breath when he
was forced to recant that the Earth moved around the Sun by the Inquisition…
…”And yet it moves”…) Not (just) a desire to have the last word, stevie, but Red C in your diagram isn't conforming. It is moving; and it will enter the TZ of Blue E before it enters any other TZ. Hence it can't go on to contact Blue D. |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 8, 2022 23:11:10 GMT
Hi Everyone,
Great debate, as I mentioned previously, conforming is a move, it is covered on page 8 Tactical moves paragraph 3 and artillery can do it. It is also covered again on page 9 in "moving into contact with enemy" paragraph 4 and artillery cannot do it. Artillery may conform if contacted, and must conform if still in front edge contact when combat ends; however, artillery cannot move into contact with enemy that have not contacted them.
Regards Chris
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Post by jeffreythancock on Jan 9, 2022 3:21:37 GMT
Can Art form part of a Group?
Is so, isn't conforming different for Groups, Chris?
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 9, 2022 4:30:33 GMT
Can Art form part of a Group? Is so, isn't conforming different for Groups, Chris? Yes, the two artillery elements Y and Z form a group, tactical moves paragraph 3. For this reason both artillery Y and Z should conform or, if they choose not to, Y must shoot first then D will fight X with a double overlap, one for refusing to conform and one due to elephant C. Conforming rules are different for groups, here two groups meet and the responsibility is for the elements contacted to conform due to part element spacing (11.3 cm between W-Z = 2.83 BW). If it chooses not to conform and fight with Elephant C, Art Y must shoot an element in its threat zone which looks like it should be Blade B but could be Elephant C. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jan 9, 2022 8:44:29 GMT
Y cannot shoot (because it is ABCD's bound).
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 9, 2022 11:07:08 GMT
Y cannot shoot (because it is ABCD's bound). Thanks for the correction, I agree, no shooting. If Y and Z choose not to conform, D will fight Z with a double overlap. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jan 9, 2022 11:37:54 GMT
Y cannot shoot (because it is ABCD's bound). Thanks for the correction, I agree, no shooting. If Y and Z choose not to conform, D will fight Z with a double overlap. I think it would only be a single overlap - although I accept the rules don't specify whether the element which doesn't conform counts as being overlapped only on one side or on both. As I say, my take is that it is a single overlap, so -1 rather than -2. |
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Post by haywire on Jan 9, 2022 13:50:00 GMT
Chris Humphreys, your view is that one of the following occurs:
1 Y and Z conform to contact, as a group.
2 Y and Z do nothing, and Z fights with an overlap
Would you also allow Z to conform and Y stay in position?
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 9, 2022 22:48:10 GMT
Thanks for the correction, I agree, no shooting. If Y and Z choose not to conform, D will fight Z with a double overlap. I think it would only be a single overlap - although I accept the rules don't specify whether the element which doesn't conform counts as being overlapped only on one side or on both. As I say, my take is that it is a single overlap, so -1 rather than -2. Thanks for your comment, I would still say -2: same situation as 13d element Y contacted by B, it has refused to conform and it is overlapped. |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 9, 2022 23:49:31 GMT
Chris Humphreys, your view is that one of the following occurs: 1 Y and Z conform to contact, as a group. 2 Y and Z do nothing, and Z fights with an overlap Would you also allow Z to conform and Y stay in position? Hi Haywire Good question, the rule on page 9 says, "contacted elements or groups must conform or fight". My interpretation of this is that the artillery must conform as a group because they are a group that has been contacted by a group (of elephants) and part element spacing has prevented the elephants making front edge contact with the group. My justification is fig 12c where the group of Psiloi must conform to the Auxilia there is no option for a single element to conform. I don't think it is legal for Z to conform and Y to stay in position. Note that the elephants must be able to demonstrate they have enough move to make legal front edge to front edge contact with the artillery Y and Z if the blades W and X were not there, see fig 10. If they do not then being out of charge range and not part-element spacing is what is preventing contact and the elephants must stop short . The conforming rules are triggered by part element spacing only if that is the reason front edge contact is not possible. A further point to consider is that if blades W and X were not there Elephant C would enter the threat zone of Artillery Z first and would not be able to legally contact artillery Y from that angle. The V formation allows the contacting group to continue to move straight ahead into contact. Moral of the story: Don't put your troops in a V, Phil is always one step ahead. Regards Chris |
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Post by jeffreythancock on Jan 10, 2022 1:02:36 GMT
You do not consider conforming as moving into contact then, Chris? Hence, the Art can conform to the El once the El contacts the Art?
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 10, 2022 4:02:53 GMT
You do not consider conforming as moving into contact then, Chris? Hence, the Art can conform to the El once the El contacts the Art? Hi jeffreythancock, Exactly so, in this situation, because of the part element spacing, the artillery must either move into contact to conform after they have been contacted by enemy or fight as if overlapped, (and they must conform if they are still in front edge contact when combat ends) page 9. Artillery turning to face after being hit on the flank is also an example where artillery move into contact when conforming (covered on page 10) and this is allowed. Unless conforming after being contacted, artillery (et al) cannot move into to any contact, not even to provide an overlap on a corner or side edge. Regards, Chris |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jan 10, 2022 8:37:17 GMT
I think it would only be a single overlap - although I accept the rules don't specify whether the element which doesn't conform counts as being overlapped only on one side or on both. As I say, my take is that it is a single overlap, so -1 rather than -2. Thanks for your comment, I would still say -2: same situation as 13d element Y contacted by B, it has refused to conform and it is overlapped. I think the situation in fig 13d is different. There Sp C is also in front corner to front corner contact with Bd Y which is an overlap position and creates the second overlap. In cgd's example at the start of this thread, El C hasn't contacted Art Z and doesn't overlap it. Hence my conclusion that it is a -1 penalty (for not conforming to El D). I think too that you may be drawing the wrong conclusion from fig 12c, which I think is included in order to illustrate the exception to the general rule that a single element contacted by a group conforms to the group rather than that a group always has to conform as a group, so I would allow Art Z to conform while Art Y stays in place. But I could be wrong. |
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Post by chrishumphreys on Jan 10, 2022 10:23:04 GMT
Yep, that's what they say, stevie. Now add in the Threat Zones and explain how Red C contacts Blue D without passing through Blue E's TZ. Ha!…because it’s a group, and groups are not forced to split when conforming… …otherwise Figures 13c and 13d would be drawn very differently. of Come to think of it, explain how in Figure 13b the Cavalry-C element can slip sideways out of the Spear column’s Threat Zone? Look, it seems this debate has run its course and reached its final conclusion. Many of you want conforming to not be classed as ‘moving’, and are not bothered by all the weird side effects this will bring. So I’ll do the same. I see it as yet another river rules debacle. The rules say “For movement, a river is neither good nor other going.” “Oh no Stevie…Phil Barker’s rules may say it only applies to movement, but we players know better, and we want to also apply it combat as well.” Well now we have another one, where the rules say “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into ANY contact with the enemy.” “Oh no Stevie…Phil Barker’s rules may say they can’t contact an enemy, but we players know better, and we want them to contact when forced to conform.” But for the sake of unity, I give in, I submit, I surrender, you win, and I’ll play it your way. (Although like Galileo is alleged to have muttered under his breath when he
was forced to recant that the Earth moved around the Sun by the Inquisition…
…”And yet it moves”…) Hi All, A couple of points. "Ha!…because it’s a group, and groups are not forced to split when conforming… …otherwise Figures 13c and 13d would be drawn very differently." Agreed, groups are not forced to split when conforming; however, once the group Red A-C enters the threat zone of Blue E (the first threat zone the group enters) the whole group must advance towards or into contact with Blue E. I don't think this allows the group to walk through the threat zone and out on the other side as is suggested in the diagram, as soon as element Red C reaches the threat zone of Blue D the whole group must either stop or wheel to allow red C to move into contact with Blue E. "Come to think of it, explain how in Figure 13b the Cavalry-C element can slip sideways out of the Spear column’s Threat Zone?" This is exactly what is allowed for in option (d) for moving into contact with enemy. The cavalry contacts the spear group with its front edge and the result is that Cavalry B ends in option (a), front edge contact and Cavalry C ends in option (d), with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap position. Some things that are not allowed in making tactical moves to get into contact are allowed when conforming after a legal contact has been made. Regards Chris |
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Post by Roland on Jan 10, 2022 13:07:08 GMT
I've been churning this question ( and thread) over in my mind off and on the past few days. After all the parsing is set aside I'm left with a few thoughts. Early in the thread it was speculated aloud whether player WXYZ's position was a legal one to begin with. Unfortunately, that is a moot point because, however that "herse" was created the rules are not designed in a way to declare such formations legal or illegal. It is therefore legal and has to be dealt with under the rules one way or another...
The leaves me with the other thought. Good faith reading of the rules as written forces us to prioritize a 'hierarchy' of the rules as the current formation puts several of them into conflict. In the end though we have to agree that player ABCD is entitled to engage player WXYZ'z group in his bound. All that has to be determined is what is the formation response required from WXYZ. This sort of leaves us with 2 outcomes, either of which can be argued under the rules. Either the entire group conforms ( as I even argued initially), or Bd X and ArtZ turn to to face and conform. Issues of interpenetrating TZs and the inviolability of groups not withstanding, allowing the 2 groups to fully conform allows player WXYZ to somewhat get off the hook for what appears to be a rather cheeky move. Were I just a wargamer unfamiliar with the vagaries of DBA and I saw this diagram, common sense would tell me that Bd X and Art Z would be forced to turn and face on their own thus compromising the integrity of that groups battle line. ( but this is just my musing)
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