cgd
Munifex
Posts: 21
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Post by cgd on Dec 14, 2021 16:40:21 GMT
Hello, an unexpected situation arose during the last tournament. Diagram 13b was partly helpful, but I was unable to make my mind when asked to settle the matter.
At first, player with Art and Bd didn't want to conform (he finally agreed just to avoid an argument between the other player and the umpire [me], and finished with a line of Bd and Art, but that might have been at his disadvantage).
So, refusing to conform, his groups had to fight as if overlapped on one side.
The first question is :
- Does Elephant C fight Artillery Y, and does Blade B fight Blade X ?
The second question is :
- If the fight between Blade B and Blade X is a tie, are the still in contact and do they still have to fight during the next bound ? (the issue can't happen for Elephant C and Artillery Y since on a tie, the Elephant recoils
We still do not agree on those questions...
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Post by Roland on Dec 15, 2021 0:56:59 GMT
"contacted" group elements conform to group elements moving into contact ( in good going)
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Post by Baldie on Dec 15, 2021 6:47:38 GMT
I am not sure there is a legal contact.
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cgd
Munifex
Posts: 21
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Post by cgd on Dec 15, 2021 7:41:31 GMT
"contacted" group elements conform to group elements moving into contact ( in good going) Thank you for your answer, but what about Figure 13d : "The blade groups must conform to Spears A and B or fight as if each is overlapped on one flank." ? It seems that the Bd group and the Art group in my case replace the "blade groups" of fig 13d. And page 9, it says (moving into contact with enemy) : "If conforming [...] is prevented [...], contacted elements or groups must either conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped"
Do they really must conform ? The option to fight as if each is overlapped on one flank cannot be choosed ?
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Post by Simon on Dec 15, 2021 10:20:27 GMT
Not sure of the answer but some thoughts:
Different from 13d in that the groups being contacted are made up of columns rather than line.
In 13d it looks by eye that A/B/C group would have enough movement to otherwise make legal contact with XW/YZ groups.
Looking at the diagram above, I am not sure that the Blades A/B have enough movement to legally contact Blade W.
I think I would rule that if contact if desired, then El C would contact Art Z with El D providing overlap and Art Y also providing supporting overlap. The Blades A/B could move forward as a separate group move but needing to consider the impact of an El recoil!
... or just throw a dice to see what happens!
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cgd
Munifex
Posts: 21
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Post by cgd on Dec 15, 2021 11:19:16 GMT
Not sure of the answer but some thoughts: Different from 13d in that the groups being contacted are made up of columns rather than line. In 13d it looks by eye that A/B/C group would have enough movement to otherwise make legal contact with XW/YZ groups. Looking at the diagram above, I am not sure that the Blades A/B have enough movement to legally contact Blade W. I think I would rule that if contact if desired, then El C would contact Art Z with El D providing overlap and Art Y also providing supporting overlap. The Blades A/B could move forward as a separate group move but needing to consider the impact of an El recoil! ... or just throw a dice to see what happens! If forgot to mention that all Blades are Fast, and they had the distance to contact (as the Elephants). The question was also important as unengaged Artillery could shoot at the Elephants during the next bound. So if I understand, according to you, El C and Art Y remain unengaged. That was my position, but I am still not sure. Thanks for you opinion. |
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Post by Simon on Dec 15, 2021 11:28:49 GMT
If the Bds can move 3BW I might even tempted to rule that the combat just ends up in a line with 4 elements facing 4 elements. On the basis of "The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game etc etc"
Simon
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Post by paulisper on Dec 15, 2021 11:47:05 GMT
I use figure 13d here, as you mention. The Bd W and Art Z must conform (along with the rest of the two groups) or fight if overlapped. This was a rule change brought in to ensure elements would engage in fighting and do away with cheesy alignment preventing contact.
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Post by Simon on Dec 15, 2021 12:57:02 GMT
Agree that if the chevron formation won't move into a line then they all fight as overlapped as Paul says.
Simon
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cgd
Munifex
Posts: 21
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Post by cgd on Dec 15, 2021 19:11:00 GMT
OK, thanks, I think we now all agree about Bd W and Art Z.
But what about Bd X and Art Y ?
Do they fight? Since the rule says "If conforming [...] is prevented [...], contacted elements or groups must either conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped", it's still confusing...
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Post by stevie on Dec 15, 2021 20:49:00 GMT
I’d like to throw my hat into the ring if I may.
But first I have to muddy the water a bit by mentioning an unwritten ‘hidden rule’:-
Conforming does NOT force a group to split up.
Only turning to face, a combat outcome, or their owner can split a group.
This becomes clear if you look at Figures 13c, 13d, and 13e…all of which would
show different positions if the act of conforming forced groups to break up.
Soooo, I think the sequence of events is as follows:-
* The Bd-El group moves into contact, with some of their front-edges touching.
* This moving group should conform to the stationary groups, but cannot do so
without breaking it’s formation (which would require an extra PIP; owner’s choice)
* So the stationary groups must conform instead, or stand and fight as if overlapped.
(Note: the stationary elements contacted could individually conform; owner’s choice)
* Since Bd-B, Bd-X, El-C and Art-Y do not have their front-edges in contact, they do not fight.
* Thus Bd-W is overlapped as it fights Blade-A, and Art-Z is overlapped as it fights El-D.
And if either Bd recoils the enemy Bd will pursue and instantly conform, due to this:-
”Elements contacted this bound by enemy or if front-edge is still in contact
when combat ends automatically conform if necessary.”
In short, Cgd’s diagram at the top of this post is correct, and I agree with both Paulisper and Simon.
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Post by paulisper on Dec 15, 2021 22:26:23 GMT
OK, thanks, I think we now all agree about Bd W and Art Z. But what about Bd X and Art Y ? Do they fight? Since the rule says "If conforming [...] is prevented [...], contacted elements or groups must either conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped", it's still confusing... Bd X and Art Y only fight if they conform to the group, otherwise they’re left hanging… P |
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Post by vodnik on Dec 15, 2021 22:54:44 GMT
...that situation is a problem of fresh players. DBA is not a geometric game but a tactical one... ...for me you can clear the situation with any light trops & not with blades. So you have to try other army option
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Post by Roland on Dec 16, 2021 0:42:16 GMT
I suppose I should offer an extra addendum to my rather flip answer. IIRC the 'contacted' elements have up to 1BW of slide to conform. ( now this is expressly stated as a lateral BW but there is no reason not to extend the move to an arcing BW for such an unusual formation). If the BW move still does not result in proper contact then I agree that the overlap disadvantage should apply. Its worth stating that my statement on conforming results in the same outcome as the consensus here. ( however we got here). We should end up with two battle lines engaging...
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Post by stevie on Dec 16, 2021 10:35:36 GMT
Here are some additional thoughts to supplement my earlier post.
The very last paragraph at the bottom of page 9 says:-
“CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into any contact with (an) enemy…”
I therefore assume that the Artillery group consisting of Art-Y & Art-Z cannot
conform as a group to the moving Elephants, as that would bring Art-Y into
contact with El-C…which is not allowed.
What the non-bounding Artillery player 'could' have done is to choose to have
his Blade group consisting of Bd-W & Bd-X conform as a group to the moving
enemy Blades (and have Bd-X be overlapped by El-C), while the Artillery group
stands it’s ground (and Art-Z will be overlapped as it fights El-D).
That way Art-Y could still shoot at El-C.
(The two stationary groups don’t both have to do the same thing…it’s their owner’s choice)
Note that if El-D is victorious it must pursue straight forwards (a combat outcome),
and will touch and must instantly conform to the flank-edge of Art-Y, which will then
turn-to-face this flank attack, again due to:-
”Elements contacted this bound by enemy or whose front-edge is still in contact
when combat ends automatically conform if necessary.”
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