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Post by phippsy on Aug 31, 2018 21:47:09 GMT
In a recent game a group of blades was pinned by a single Psiloi with the left flank blade element in its threat zone.
A legal move looked like the group could move forwards, in the Psiloi threat zone, and contact the front edge of the Psiloi, with its front corner. We understood this was acceptable and then lined up the Psiloi element with the left flank blade and fought the combat.
We did check the recent Jan 2018 FAQ which has the example of the same situation but the corner of the group contacts the rear edge (not legal), and when the front edge of a group meets the rear corner of the element (legal and element conforms), therefore we assumed our scenario of group front corner to element front edge led to conforming.
Is this correct?
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Post by chrishumphreys on Feb 1, 2022 9:15:39 GMT
Hi all,
I would also like to know how this is played. I am sure it has been asked before so I apologise if I am revisiting a past conversation.
Specifically, in figure 10, Cavalry A is not allowed to contact the group of Auxilia X and Y, but what about the other way round? What would happen if the group of Auxilia X and Y had moved to contact the front edge of Cavalry A with its front corner? (B C and Z are not there). Would Cavalry A conform to the front edge of group of Auxilia X+Y or would the Ax stop short and be made to wheel to contact with its front edge?
Regards,
Chris
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Post by Simon on Feb 1, 2022 10:33:01 GMT
Hi all, I would also like to know how this is played. I am sure it has been asked before so I apologise if I am revisiting a past conversation. Specifically, in figure 10, Cavalry A is not allowed to contact the group of Auxilia X and Y, but what about the other way round? What would happen if the group of Auxilia X and Y had moved to contact the front edge of Cavalry A with its front corner? (B C and Z are not there). Would Cavalry A conform to the front edge of group of Auxilia X+Y or would the Ax stop short and be made to wheel to contact with its front edge? Regards, Chris My view is that XY would need to wheel until front edge of X is touching front edge of A and then A would slide right to conform with X. This is based on BCZ not being there. Cheers Simon |
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 1, 2022 11:00:27 GMT
Hi all, I would also like to know how this is played. I am sure it has been asked before so I apologise if I am revisiting a past conversation. Specifically, in figure 10, Cavalry A is not allowed to contact the group of Auxilia X and Y, but what about the other way round? What would happen if the group of Auxilia X and Y had moved to contact the front edge of Cavalry A with its front corner? (B C and Z are not there). Would Cavalry A conform to the front edge of group of Auxilia X+Y or would the Ax stop short and be made to wheel to contact with its front edge? Regards, Chris My view is that XY would need to wheel until front edge of X is touching front edge of A and then A would slide right to conform with X. This is based on BCZ not being there. Cheers Simon I'm going to take the opposite view. i think that, because A is a single element, it is the one which has to conform and that it does so the moment X's front corner touches it. |
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Post by paulisper on Feb 1, 2022 11:41:10 GMT
I’m with menacus on this one 👍
P
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Post by stevie on Feb 1, 2022 12:05:51 GMT
Well, I can tell you what the rules say…
…but I cannot tell you how some players choose to interpret those rules.
It’s all described in Moving Into Contact on page 9.
At the end of the movement phase, one side or the other must be:-
(a) in full mutual front-edge contact (sliding so corners touch), or
(b) in front-edge to side-edge contact (with front corners touching), or
(c) in full front-edge to rear-edge contact (with corners touching), or
(d) with no enemy in contact to its front, and in an overlap position (see p.10).
If this is not possible (due to a lack of movement), the move does not happen. (see figure 10)
So then, who does the conforming?
This is fully described in the next paragraph:-
A single element must conform when contacted by a moving group,
unless the single element is entirely in Rough or Bad Going.
Otherwise the moving troops must do the conforming.
(There then follows a subsection describing if there is a lack of space)
This is then further clarified in more detail by the FAQ:-
Q: I am moving a line of Spears as a group. I can just barely contact the rear of a single enemy Cav element in
good going with the corner of my Spear line. Does it have to conform?
A: No. You must stop short. To force the Cav to conform you must contact it with your front edge in most cases...
not your corner. The only exception is when contact is prevented by part-element spacing between enemy
elements or physically blocked by elements, terrain or a table edge.
Q: I am moving a line of Spears as a group. I can just barely contact the rear corner of a single enemy Cav
element in good going with my front. Does it have to conform?
A: Yes. A group contacting a single element in good going with its front edge forces the enemy element to conform.
In this case, the Cav will conform on contact to having its flank or rear (whichever requires the least movement)
in contact with the Spear. The Cav will then turn to face after the movement phase.
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Post by ronisan on Feb 1, 2022 13:39:24 GMT
Hello guys,
menacussecundus is right!
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Post by ronisan on Feb 1, 2022 14:10:53 GMT
Well, I can tell you what the rules say… …but I cannot tell you how some players choose to interpret those rules. It’s all described in Moving Into Contact on page 9. At the end of the movement phase, one side or the other must be:- (a) in full mutual front-edge contact (sliding so corners touch), or (b) in front-edge to side-edge contact (with front corners touching), or (c) in full front-edge to rear-edge contact (with corners touching), or (d) with no enemy in contact to its front, and in an overlap position (see p.10). If this is not possible (due to a lack of movement), the move does not happen. (see figure 10)So then, who does the conforming? This is fully described in the next paragraph:- A single element must conform when contacted by a moving group, unless the single element is entirely in Rough or Bad Going. Otherwise the moving troops must do the conforming. (There then follows a subsection describing if there is a lack of space)This is then further clarified in more detail by the FAQ:- Q: I am moving a line of Spears as a group. I can just barely contact the rear of a single enemy Cav element in good going with the corner of my Spear line. Does it have to conform? A: No. You must stop short. To force the Cav to conform you must contact it with your front edge in most cases... not your corner. The only exception is when contact is prevented by part-element spacing between enemy elements or physically blocked by elements, terrain or a table edge. Q: I am moving a line of Spears as a group. I can just barely contact the rear corner of a single enemy Cav element in good going with my front. Does it have to conform? A: Yes. A group contacting a single element in good going with its front edge forces the enemy element to conform. In this case, the Cav will conform on contact to having its flank or rear (whichever requires the least movement) in contact with the Spear. The Cav will then turn to face after the movement phase. Hello Stevie, I‘m afraid your upper Q&A is wrong  … but your lower Q&A is right  . It doesn‘t make any difference whether a groups front edge or front corner contacts a single element‘s corner or edge, because the single element has to conform and not the group. Just after conforming, the situation is checked. The rules say: „ At the end of the bound’s movement phase the contacting element … must be lined-up …“! So in both your Q&As, the Cav conforms (group contacting single element) and the group has a legal front edge contact at the end of its bound‘s movement phase. Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by stevie on Feb 1, 2022 15:00:04 GMT
Hey…they are not ‘ MY’ FAQ rule clarifications! Don’t shoot the messenger.  But I will admit to following almost all of them, when they make sense. (Although I am currently at war with their miss-interpretation of the River Rules...  ) |
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Post by ronisan on Feb 1, 2022 15:44:08 GMT
Well Stevie, I know you are bulletproof |
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Post by Simon on Feb 1, 2022 16:03:41 GMT
Isn't there a general principle in the moving into combat section that "....moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat?" Suggests the FAQ are right.
Simon
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Post by ronisan on Feb 1, 2022 17:46:31 GMT
Just imagine: 1. A group (2 elements in column) faces a single enemy element in its TZ … the single elements front edge is parallel to the front edge of the group, but not lined up. It is displaced about 1/2 BW. The group moves straight forward and hits the enemy partially with the group‘s front edge to enemy front edge -> The single element has to conform -> close combat! 2. A group (2 elements in column) faces a single enemy element in its TZ … the single elements front edge is not parallel to the front edge of the group - it‘s slightly turned facing away from the group. The group moves straight forward and hits the enemy‘s front corner with the group‘s front edge! -> The single element has to conform -> close combat! 3. A group (2 elements in column) faces a single enemy element in its TZ … the single elements front edge is not parallel to the front edge of the group - it‘s slightly turned facing to the center the group. Displace it to the left or right about 1/2 BW (to get the enemy‘s forward front corner out of the group‘s TZ), so the group (if it moves straight forward) hits the enemy‘s front edge with the group‘s front corner! -> The single element has to conform -> close combat! Why are the FAQ‘s telling us, that 3. should not be possible and the group „must stop short“ of contacting? That‘s not logical  Cheers Ronald. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 1, 2022 19:07:02 GMT
Ah Ronald…there is a ‘get out clause’ in the small print.  Page 8, Tactical Moves, third paragraph, last sentence:- “Each of (a group’s) elements must move parallel to or follow the first to move, move the same distance,
or wheel forwards through the same angles with the group’s entire front edge pivoting forward around a front corner.
No other changes in frontage/direction/facing can be made, even within a TZ except to pivot, wheel and/or slide sideways
to line up in an enemy TZ (!), or to conform in close combat."Soooo, once in the TZ, the entire group can shift sideways a bit to ensure that groups front-edge, and not just its front-corner, contacts the enemy. (You know, I think I should have been a lawyer…  ) |
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Post by jeffreythancock on Feb 2, 2022 3:07:35 GMT
You need to work on your self esteem, Stevie! Dont beat yourself up by calling yourself names. ;-D
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Post by ronisan on Feb 2, 2022 7:22:03 GMT
Ah Ronald…there is a ‘get out clause’ in the small print. Page 8, Tactical Moves, third paragraph, last sentence:- “Each of (a group’s) elements must move parallel to or follow the first to move, move the same distance,
or wheel forwards through the same angles with the group’s entire front edge pivoting forward around a front corner.
No other changes in frontage/direction/facing can be made, even within a TZ except to pivot, wheel and/or slide sideways
to line up in an enemy TZ (!), or to conform in close combat."Soooo, once in the TZ, the entire group can shift sideways a bit to ensure that groups front-edge, and not just its front-corner, contacts the enemy. (You know, I think I should have been a lawyer…  )Hi Stevie, I know … I just wanted to explain, that a group contacting a single enemy element doesn‘t have to do this by their front edge! If the player doesn‘t want to or the movement capacity isn‘t enough, etc. …then a group is able to contact a single enemy element just by their front corner, because the conforming has to be executed by the single enemy element! That‘s what the rules say … but not what the FAQ‘s say. But I stick to the rules! Cheers Ronald P.S. Stevie - you shouldn‘t have been a lawyer … you should have been a tax inspector … by the way … are you a tax inspector? |
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… but your lower Q&A is right 
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