|
|
Post by ronisan on Feb 5, 2022 8:16:24 GMT
Front corner contact is legal and triggers conforming on a side/rear edge BUT if contacting a Group you must conform so you need enough MA to move into full front edge contact (you don't even get the free slide if side/rear). If you can't than the contact is not legal. But if contacting a single Element with a Group than the single Element must conform so you don't need the any more MA etc. TomT Hello, Thank you medieavalthomas for perfectly explaining what‘s written in the rulebook in chapter „moving into contact with enemy“ (page 9)😄 Cheers, Ronald |
|
|
|
Post by gonatas on Feb 5, 2022 8:22:09 GMT
Front corner contact is legal and triggers conforming on a side/rear edge BUT if contacting a Group you must conform so you need enough MA to move into full front edge contact (you don't even get the free slide if side/rear). If you can't than the contact is not legal. But if contacting a single Element with a Group than the single Element must conform so you don't need the any more MA etc. TomT |
|
|
|
Post by gonatas on Feb 5, 2022 8:24:52 GMT
Front corner contact is legal and triggers conforming on a side/rear edge BUT if contacting a Group you must conform so you need enough MA to move into full front edge contact (you don't even get the free slide if side/rear). If you can't than the contact is not legal. But if contacting a single Element with a Group than the single Element must conform so you don't need the any more MA etc. TomT Can we reach a consensus on this basis? |
|
|
|
Post by ronisan on Feb 5, 2022 8:47:02 GMT
Complete consensus!👍
Because it‘s exactly what the rulebook says!👏🤣👏
My advice: read the rules … and keep it simple!
Cheers, Ronald
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 5, 2022 10:12:41 GMT
(I heard that! Who just said “Oh no, not him again!”  )Soooo…can I assume that the following is the consensus?:- * Corner-to-corner and mutual side-edge contacts NEVER triggers conforming. ---Otherwise:--- * A moving group's front-edge or front-corner touching ANY part of a single element WILL cause the single element to do the conforming. (Unless the single element is entirely in rough/bad going). * A moving group's front-edge or front-corner touching ANY part of a stationary group makes the moving group do the conforming…which means the moving group must have enough movement to conform. Basically, someone or other must have their front-edge or at least a front-corner involved... ...or no conforming. Therefore the following FAQ Rule Clarification is WRONG, and can be ignored:- Q: I am moving a line of Spears as a group. I can just barely contact the rear of a single enemy Cav element in good going with the corner of my Spear line. Does it have to conform? A: No. You must stop short. To force the Cav to conform you must contact it with your front edge in most cases... not your corner. The only exception is when contact is prevented by part-element spacing between enemy elements or physically blocked by elements, terrain or a table edge. It looks like the FAQ is not always right after all. (Now then…about that ridiculous FAQ River Rule miss-interpretation…  )
|
|
|
|
Post by lkmjbc on Feb 5, 2022 19:06:21 GMT
As always, you can decide whether and/or how you use the FAQ.
As a matter of policy we don't discuss our entries or the reasoning behind them. These entries were made with the full consensus of the team...
This being said, I think a small amount more of thought will derive the reasons for this entry.
In play it makes only a very small difference... that might be a clue!
Joe Collins
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 5, 2022 22:41:57 GMT
Hmmm…that doesn’t seem to be of much help Joe.
Has anyone seen Ben Stiller in the film Mystery Men, where the Sphinx says:-
“You must be like the wolf pack, not the six-pack.”
“The wise man is weakest, when he thinks himself strong.”
“You cannot vanquish an enemy, until you have vanquished your enemy within.”
“Unil you can master your rage, your rage will become your master.”
We wargamers are simple folk, and we just need yes or no answers…...
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 7, 2022 12:02:43 GMT
I’ve been giving this issue more thought, and it all boils down to players choosing one of the two following options:- ① Accept the FAQ ruling, where only a moving group’s front-edge, and not its front-corner, triggers conforming. (Advantage: this already clearly written down for all to see) ② Change this to a moving group’s front-edge OR its front-corner is enough to cause conforming. (Advantage: this seems more natural and instinctive, and also requires less fiddly artificial micro-measuring trying to wiggle a group so that its front-edge makes contact, so is more practical) I myself advocated following the FAQ ruling (see fanaticus.boards.net/post/40246/ ), but it appears that some players are not happy with this. I suppose someone could conduct a poll to see which of these two options is preferred, but that would be a fruitless exercise, as some will favour one option while others will favour the other option, so a consensus is unlikely to be archived. The only way that I can see of getting a full consensus is to try to persuade the FAQ Team to change their ruling and allow both front-edges AND front-corners to trigger conforming… …but that is unlikely to happen, as their pride won’t let them. So it looks like us players will just have to decide for themselves… |
|
|
|
Post by ronisan on Feb 7, 2022 12:40:00 GMT
Hi folks,
for me (personally) I‘ll keep sticking to the rulebook (page 9):
Red for moving into contact/attacking side … blue for contacted side:
1a. Group (front edge or front corner) contacting single element (in GG or not entirely in BG or RG) -> single element has to conform!
1b. Group (front edge) contacting single element (entirely in BG or RG) -> group has to conform!
2. Group (front edge) contacting group -> group has to conform!
3. Single Clement (front edge) contacting single element -> single element has to conform!
4. Single element (front edge) contacting group -> single element has to conform!
Cheers, Ronald
|
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Feb 7, 2022 13:24:42 GMT
I agree with Ronald. I think the FAQ didn't put enough emphasis on the phrase "... contacted elements conform at contact." The Sp group has enough move the contact the single Cav. The Cav must conform on contact. This leads to a legal front edge to rear edge contact. No need for the Sp to have any further tactical movement up its sleeve. This makes the game flow better as well.
Cheers
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by Simon on Feb 7, 2022 18:06:03 GMT
Could anyone help me understand how the general principle in the first line of the moving moving into combat section that states "....moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat?" might have a bearing on this discussion? Here there is a specific reference to a front edge rather than a front corner moving into contact to trigger a close combat.
Cheers Simon
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 7, 2022 19:02:46 GMT
Could anyone help me understand how the general principle in the first line of the moving moving into combat section that states "....moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat?" might have a bearing on this discussion? Here there is a specific reference to a front edge rather than a front corner moving into contact to trigger a close combat. Cheers Simon I’ll have a go Simon.  Yes, the very first sentence of the page 9 Contacting The Enemy section does indeed say:- “...moving a front edge into contact with an enemy always results in combat.” However, there is a chunk of the rules missing… …”What triggers conforming?”…because you can’t have close combat without conforming. Is it when any part of a group touches any part of a single element?… Is it when the group’s front-edge touches any part of a single element?… Is it when the group’s front-edge or front-corner touches a single element, except when the group touches the rear or rear-corner of a single element? The rules don’t say. So the FAQ Team tried to fill in this missing rule… …but some players don’t like it (and I can understand why, as their solution is awkward and not very practical). |
|
|
|
Post by medievalthomas on Feb 7, 2022 19:29:32 GMT
It comes down to whether a front corner counts as a front edge. The FAQ tries hard but it does generate a lot of background noise sometimes that can lead to exhaustion and my fear of not answering a question. It turns out you really do need a front corner to trigger conforming when a Group contacts a skewed single Element.
This is the only time it makes a difference - but what a difference. Since the whole intent of Phil and his "must result in combat" was to prevent jig saw lines of single Elements the intent should have been obvious.
So it turns out that front corner to edge contact and front edge to corner both trigger conforming. End of rule (elegance has its uses). Please note that corner to corner DOES NOT TRIGGER CONFORMING.
So when introducing new comers you need explain only these two concepts.
Also bear in mind this triggers the conforming rules - it may be that a single Element contacting a Group or single Element or a Group contacting a Group CANNOT CONFORM. In which case the contact is illegal and you must back off. Just triggering conforming rules doesn't automatically conform the Elements.
TomT
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 7, 2022 19:48:46 GMT
Thanks for that input Tom…very helpful. However:- ...it may be that a single Element contacting a Group or single Element or a Group contacting a Group CANNOT CONFORM. In which case the contact is illegal and you must back off. Just triggering conforming rules doesn't automatically conform the Elements. Wouldn’t this make Figures 13a, 13b, 13c, 13d and 13e illegal? (I’m sure you didn’t mean that) |
|
|
|
Post by robert on Feb 7, 2022 19:51:59 GMT
fig 10 page20 shows front edge hitting corner and not able to conform as contact not allowed so is opposite also not allowed.
|
|
)
)
