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Post by primuspilus on Dec 12, 2017 16:00:16 GMT
I recall Stevie I think producing some nice house rules over on the yahoo site a while back. There were nice rules for chariots, and I think for 4Ax. I would like to ask everyone what they believe the 4Ax troop type represents, as compared to the 3Ax. (uh oh, here we go again... ) From a classical viewpoint, I see proto-hoplites, Italian republican Allies, Legionary auxilia, Spanish Scutarii, and Thracian later peltasts as a species of formed, medium infantry. These are the 4Ax. They have heavier shields, carry more deadly close combat weaponry, have some ability to fight with some kind of formation and maneuver discipline, are frequently less "urbanized" than the Roman legionary or Greek hoplite, and are used to slogging it out in wild country, over rough terrain. Unable necessarily to stand and hold against the legion, the phalanx, or hard-charging heavy cavalry, they nevertheless could be relied upon to at least give a decent account of themselves, and may play crucial roles in resisting an enemy advance to allow time for the remainder of their army to strike a decisive blow. I find myself also having issues with 4Bw/8Bw. The way that Persian HI get vapourised literally in one bound by a Greek hoplite line, and the way their shooting gets LESS effective as the enemy closes, not more, suggests that there is also a type of heavy bow infantry, that may be more adept at close combat fighting than their faster cousins. To me, the 3Ax and 3Bw really represent a kind of light infantry, hence their speed. I do find it odd that the 3Ax has only one way to fight against enemy HI - amble slowly up to them and get their heads bashed in without so much as a whimper. No thrilling charge. No javelin skirmishing. Like a really good Psiloi, but without the good sense to let their javelins do the talking! Now things like Stevie's flank march give our faster troops a bit more options (I think 3Bw should also be allowed a flank march, and to deploy in the flank zones) and that at least compensates for their relative weakness. That said, how could we represent the staying power of 4Ax and maybe 4Bw/8Bw a bit better? Remember, in the classical sense, this represents an interesting conundrum. From the medieval viewpoint (and when Alex fights the Indians), perhaps solid Lb and Cb are better, since they have the QK against Kn. I know some have suggested allowing 4Ax to choose to fall back 1BW. In my view, this is not enough, and solves the wrong problem, but I am prepared to stand corrected. What is the consensus out there on the future of 4Ax? I have seen proposed that 4Ax add +1 on a losing score in close combat versus Bd, Sp and Pk with rear support. Is this enough? How about how to handle 4Bw or 8Bw? For 8Bw, side support from other 8Bw or spears seems to fit better with the notion of a shield wall. Then again, a straight +1 to a losing score, like 4Ax, may accomplish the same thing. Any thoughts on the way to house rule this?
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Post by stevie on Dec 28, 2017 17:02:33 GMT
I was hoping that someone would post some new ideas for the old problem of how to improve the Ax class in DBA. But the sad truth is, there is no easy solution… …each player must decide for themselves on how to House Rule the situation to their own satisfaction. For me, I prefer the following three suggestions, all used together:- Barritus suggestion to have heavy foot being destroyed if they score equal when fighting 4Ax, unless in bad going. (See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/778/dba-3-1?page=3 for the details) This won’t help them to win any battles, but it would give them a slight chance of occasionally destroying heavy opponents. And that would at least give the Romans a reason to keep some troops in reserve. Plus Joe Collin’s suggestion to have all Ax and Ps ‘evade’ a full BW instead of just recoiling their base depth, if they wish. (See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/778/dba-3-1?page=1 ) This makes peltasts and Hellenistic thureophoroi feel like they are fighting at a distance, with javelins, and ‘evading’ a heavy infantry charge. It would also allow these nimble and agile troops to break-off and disengage from most enemy foot, even those that pursue. And lastly, Joe’s suggestion to have all Ax recoil 1 BW if they are doubled by heavy foot during the Ax bound. (See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/778/dba-3-1?page=7 ) This would help to keep them alive for a bit longer, as Ax are mind numbingly easy to kill… …as are Wb, but at least Wb can fight back. There are many other suggestions posted by others here:- fanaticus.boards.net/thread/778/dba-3-1 As for bows, maybe the following will help a bit:- fanaticus.boards.net/thread/1067/overhead-shooting-when-on-hillSome potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:- fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by lkmjbc on Dec 28, 2017 17:56:05 GMT
Stevie:
A couple more...
The use of 12 sided dice for Inferior and Superior Troops... (marked 1,1,2,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,6,6 and 1,1,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,5,6,6 respectively) Classification of some Hoplites as impetuous (follow up after combat)...
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Dec 30, 2017 15:01:35 GMT
Classification of some Hoplites as impetuous (follow up after combat)... Joe Collins Joe…here is yet another one of my weird and wild ideas… …although I must admit that I haven’t fully tested it as yet. In addition to the usual pursuit rules:- Any element that rolls a ‘6’ in close combat against any enemy must also pursue (unless they are bows, static Art, WWg, CP, Lit, CWg, or defending a city/fort/camp, or are in or would enter bad going, etc). This represents the victorious troops getting a bit overexcited and carried away when their opponents are defeated. And it might be a better way of re-enacting Hastings than hoping that the Anglo-Saxons will use Hd instead of Sp. (I’ve always thought it odd that cavalry, especially barbarian cavalry, after going through all the trouble of defeating their enemies, would just sit there and watch as their opponents ran away. In the heat of battle, many troops would have the potential to occasionally disobey orders…)
It could even be used when shot at as well…representing that the target has become enraged by the constant rain of arrows and has been provoked into surging forwards, 1 BW straight ahead for mounted and Hd, ½ BW for eligible foot. (But this needs more testing)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:- fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by primuspilus on Dec 30, 2017 16:26:48 GMT
I like that one, Stevie. I like it a lot.
I am torn about how to make Ax more feasible as a troop type. How to represent their standoff fighting ability, given they don't flee. 1 BW recoil would do it, but they still get trounced against Bd (double overlap is 5 vs 1). It may be that Joe's suggestion on recoils is the easiest to sell, though I still don't think it's enough. Fleeing if doubled in certain conditions seems as complicated as a +1 in certain conditions.
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beda
Munifex
Posts: 7
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Post by beda on Dec 30, 2017 18:39:31 GMT
Hello Stevie, since primuspilus mentioned it, could you tell us about your chariot house rules? Thanks!
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Post by stevie on Dec 31, 2017 2:42:08 GMT
Hello Stevie, since primuspilus mentioned it, could you tell us about your chariot house rules? Thanks! Certainly beda…although I should point out that the “Chariot Variations” was not my idea. Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me remember who it was that did originally proposed them. To prevent this thread going off topic, I’ve posted them in a new thread here:- fanaticus.boards.net/thread/1077/chariot-variationsGetting back to the ‘impetuous pursuit on a roll of 6’, I think bows should also be exempt like Art, WWg, CP, Lit, CWg, etc. It just doesn’t look right when Bw shuffle forwards just because they roll a ‘6’ when shooting or fighting hand-to-hand. (I’m thinking of Crecy and Agincourt) As for trying to get Ax to survive a bit longer when they fight heavy foot, there is always the following alternative:- When doubled, Ax not in bad going recoils 1 BW from Spear, Pike or Blade whose die roll is odd, otherwise destroyed. (See fanaticus.boards.net/post/6436 ) (And fanaticus.boards.net/post/6445 ) A bit awkward perhaps…but it does give the right effects. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:- fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by primuspilus on Dec 31, 2017 5:30:38 GMT
On the Ax: isn't it just easier to add +1 if their score is lower versus Pike, Blade or Spear? Less overhead, no?
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 2, 2018 3:18:28 GMT
Anyone else think that requiring Bow to fire at (especially) foot targets in their TZ is broken? Makes close range ancient bowfire less effective than long range shooting. That just feels wrong to me. ...
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Post by barritus on Jan 2, 2018 5:18:02 GMT
An interesting thread which I'll just throw in my tuppence worth.
in answer to primuspilus' question on what are 3Ax and 4Ax my thoughts are outlined via the link in Stevies original post above.
To summarise 3Ax are peltast/skirmisher types and 4Ax close combat types.
To follow up on that (see the link above) I proposed - as Stevie kindly mentioned in his post that 3Ax should recoil 1BW (Joe Collins suggestion) and that 4Ax being 'fightin' types would recoil as normal but would QK Bd, Sp and Pk on a tied combat result. Now as some have pointed out whilst improving 4Ax somewhat it still would not make them world-beaters. I admit I understood this when making the proposal as I didn't want to upset the combat results too much. However it seems that some feel here that they would like 4Ax to be a bit better again (you can never have enough of a good thing it seems).
So here's an idea (in conjunction to those already mentioned above) for both 3Ax and 4Ax. Namely, (primuspilus again) that Ax add +1 if their score is lower versus Pike, Blade or Spear. The only proviso being that if the +1 is used 4Ax cannot generate a tied QK from it. A little convoluted but may just work.....
cheers
B.
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Post by medievalthomas on Jan 2, 2018 18:07:11 GMT
I've published an entire set of medieval specific rules for DBX. It solves the Aux problem but uses too radical a solution (though much less complex than those above) for use in standard DBA.
As to close range shooting, during DBA 3.0 playtest considered adding +1 to shooting at targets within Threat Zone. At the time there were many tournament traditionalist on playtest group so radical ideas got little real consideration. (Phil at time was pushing hard for giving all Bow a +1 when shooting at any range.)
My eventual solutions for Bow/longbow/crossbow shooting are in my medieval specific rules (Knights and Knaves) but I still ponder the +1 TZ rule from time to time.
Thomas J. Thomas Fame and Glory Games
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 3, 2018 1:27:46 GMT
Hi Tom,
Bow as +1 shooting vs Pike....? Ouch indeed! Alexander now definitely can't beat Porus. But I like the idea of Bowfire with a +1 at targets in the TZ. That means if the charging mounted do not sweep away the archers, the resulting confusion in the recoil renders them highly vulnerable to the archers' revenge! I like it!
Joe, a thought for 3.1, in the optional rules section?
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Post by stevie on Jan 3, 2018 5:23:30 GMT
I too think that is a great idea Tom, thanks for posting it, and thanks to primuspilus for bringing the subject up. Actually, giving shooters a +1 when in a TZ is not quite a good as giving the target a -1, so it’s not that devastating. (That “1 in 36 Combat Effects” chart that I posted here fanaticus.boards.net/post/9701/ shows the effect)But it will help to compensate for the loss of support shooting…and it’s realistic as well. You have my vote! Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:- fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 3, 2018 6:28:57 GMT
Hey Stevie, no problem, you're welcome!
It has always bugged me with my Neo-Babylonians in the past. Now they (a line of four 8Bw elements) often dispatch mounted armies as is with relative ease, but foot troops are another issue. And Psiloi engage other archers (3/4 Bw) at equality. Your -1 is a pretty good idea, it would encourage Pikes and Auxiliary to hurry up and close with the archers as quick as they could. But I agree, both +1 to the shooter and -1 to the target would satisfy me that the requirement to shoot at a target in the TZ is no longer a thorough nerfing of archers.
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 3, 2018 6:29:52 GMT
...and it makes a single archer element still somewhat more competitive without the support shooting of other Bows!
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