You are of course correct...but when you add new rules (like ‘Fatigue’), you sometimes have to change other rules in order to make it work.
To quote from the 'Fatigue' file:- “Recoiling: all recoiling elements must interpenetrate and pass though the elements behind them, but only if they are the same type (i.e. Sp through Sp, Pk through Pk, Bd through Bd, Wb through Wb, Ax through Ax, Ps through Ps, Bow through Bow, etc) or if the recoilers are mounted.”
And the examples:- “Leuctra in 371 BC: fighting causes the front rank Spartans and front rank Thebans to become tired. But, being in a deeper formation, each time a Theban element recoils through the Sp behind it and becomes fatigued, a fresh one is is revealed. Soon the Spartans will run out of fresh elements, and have fatigued hoplites (now at -1) facing fresh Theban hoplites (at +1).
Zama 202 BC: Hannibal’s first line of infantry was made up of Gauls and Ligurians, supported by citizen spearmen. But when the first line was recoiled, the Carthaginian spearmen behind them would not let them pass through (i.e. they were not spearmen, so couldn’t interpenetrate), so the recoiled fatigued Gauls and Ligurians (at -1) had to fight the victorious (but tired) hastatii of Scipio. Later in the battle Hannibal brought forward his fresh veterans, while Scipio brought up his fresh triarii.”
Note that with ‘Fatigue’, the Theban’s no longer need artificial “Double Based 8Sp” elements...just 2 ordinary Sp elements one behind the other. And they were outnumbered at Leuctra - Thebes: 6 or 7,000 Hoplites and 1,500 Cavalry. Sparta: 10 or 11,000 Hoplites and 1,000 Cavalry. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra )
The “Theban Sacred Band” is represented by the Theban general element (so +1). Also, the true Spartiate numbers declined over the centuries, so there were only some 700 of them (say about 1 or 2 elements) at Leuctra, the rest of the so called ‘Spartan’ army was made up of ordinary Peloponnesian Hoplites. (See “Decline of the Spartiates” here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate#Decline_of_Spartiates )
so, - Is PS can recoil through all (and not PS only) - Is Mounted can recoil through all too ? - why not Bd through Sp or Ax or others ? (this time your rules is more limited than the original rules, that is a small revolution! )
when you test it do you think that it work well without negative consequence on the rest ?
All the normal recoil and interpenetrating rules on page 9 still apply (except that Ps can recoil through other Ps...and why shouldn't they?!)
But in addition, like troops must recoil and pass through friends, but only if these are the same type - i.e. Sp through Sp, Pk through Pk, Bd through, Bd, Wb through Wb, Ax through Ax, Ps through Ps, Bow through Bow, etc.
Mounted already recoils through any friends (except Pk/Hd/Elephants).
This is so that the 'Fatigued' recoiling element ends up behind the rear 'Fresh' element. And it's not voluntary...only as a result of an adverse recoil combat outcome, or if they spend two PIPs to move both elements individually so that they swap positions (if TZ's allow).
I have extensively playtested all this...playing solo, as all my mates are old stick-in-the-muds.
Last Edit: Oct 8, 2019 16:51:01 GMT by stevie: ...most players already pick up the front element and put it in the rear anyway...if they are the same type...
Actually, it makes games a little bit quicker, as recoiled troops will be ‘Fatigued’ and have a -1, and may face ‘Fresh’ opponents with a +1, so the doubling chances are higher (making the pointless pushing and shoving of Pk v Pk and Bd v Bd a bit more decisive).
Reserves become more important, as do skirmishing Ps...worried about your Blades facing Warbands with a CF of 3 with +1 for rear support and +1 for being ‘Fresh’? Then wear them down with your Velite skirmishing Psiloi (anyone rolling a combat die automatically becomes ‘Tired’ and loses their ‘Fresh’ marker...and they may even be recoiled and become ‘Fatigued’ before they even reach the main Hastatii battleline of legionaries).
You can even enter bad going without becoming ‘Tired’ and losing your ‘Fresh’ marker. Troops that are slowed by terrain that start a bound in bad going and end a move in bad going become ‘Tired’. So move your heavy foot into bad going and halt there. If they are not moving then they won’t become ‘Tired’. Providing they move from good --->to bad ---> to good they won’t become ‘Tired’. Only by moving from bad ---> to bad do they lose their 'Fresh' marker. Anyway, fast troops are not slowed by bad going, so they don’t become ‘Tired’ by the terrain they pass through, only by rolling a combat dice (in melee or if shot at).
Of course, all this requires more clever tactical thinking...and very careful timing of just when to use your valuable fresh reserves to get that battle winning result.
Interesting house rule Stevie! I’ve always hoped for some kind of tired marker in DBA. Armani has fresh and spent troops, and it means that you might hold your knights off for a bit before the big charge so you don’t wear them out!
One question: why have 3 states? Why not just “fresh”, no bonus. And “tired”, -1? Or even -2 if you want things to fall apart quickly! Did you find that only 2 states was not that helpful and 3 was necessary?
For your mates that would at least reduce the number of markers you’d need.
it also gives a nice choice for hoplites armies. Do you go wide for the side support or do you go deep for the fatigue relief?
Are Thebans the only army with 8Sp? This would other armies to decide to it or not.