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Post by timurilank on Mar 16, 2017 17:12:02 GMT
III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD) add II/57 Later Moorish (25 AD - 696 AD)
(Army II/57 lists III/29 as an enemy, but III/29 does not mention II/57.
And the Exarchate of Africa did not fall to the Muslims until Carthage was destroyed in 698 AD.)
DBA 2.2 listed these as mutual enemies.
Action:
Add II/57 Later Moorish (25 AD - 696 AD) to III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD)
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Post by timurilank on Mar 16, 2017 17:12:31 GMT
III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD) add III/16 Khazar Army (568 AD – 1083 AD)
(Army III/16 lists III/29 as an enemy, but III/29 does not mention III/16)
DBA 2.2 listed these as mutual enemies.
Action:
Add III/16 Khazar Army (568 AD – 1083 AD) to III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD)
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Post by timurilank on Mar 16, 2017 17:13:05 GMT
III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD) add III/26a Serbian Army (627 AD – 1180 AD)
(Army III/26a lists III/29 as an enemy, but III/29 does not mention III/26a)
DBA 2.2 listed these as mutual enemies.
Action:
Add III/26a Serbian Army (627 AD – 1180 AD) to III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD)
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Post by timurilank on Mar 16, 2017 17:13:37 GMT
III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD) add III/26b Croatian Army (627 AD – 1089 AD)
(Army III/26b lists III/29 as an enemy, but III/29 does not mention III/26b)
DBA 2.2 listed these as mutual enemies.
Action:
Add III/26b Croatian Army (627 AD – 1089 AD) to III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD)
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Post by timurilank on Mar 16, 2017 17:14:22 GMT
III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD) add III/28 Carolingian Army (639 AD – 888 AD)
(Army III/28 lists III/29 as an enemy, but III/29 does not mention III/28)
DBA 2.2 listed these as mutual enemies.
Action:
Add III/28 Carolingian Army (639 AD – 888 AD) to III/29 Thematic Byzantine (650 AD – 963 AD)
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Post by timurilank on Mar 17, 2017 14:52:26 GMT
Here are some more errors from Book II (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
II/54b Scots-Irish Army (433 AD – 841 AD) remove III/40b Viking Army (850 AD – 1280 AD)
(Army II/54b lists III/40a & III/40b as enemies, but III/40b does not mention II/54b, and the dates don’t match.
It appears that the correct enemy of III/40b are the III/46 Norse Irish (842 AD – 1300 AD), who are already listed as mutual enemies of each other.)
The error appears to have been carried over from DBA 2.2.
Action:
Remove III/40b from II/54b Scots-Irish Army (433 AD – 841 AD).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 17, 2017 14:53:40 GMT
Here are some more errors from Book II (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
II/81d Strathclyde Army (580 AD – 1034 AD) add III/19a Welsh Army (580 AD – 1149 AD)
(Army III/19a lists II/81d as an enemy, but II/81d does not mention III/19a)
Strange as these two were mutual enemies in the older version.
Action:
Add III/19a to II/81d Strathclyde Army (580 AD – 1034 AD).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 17, 2017 14:55:32 GMT
II/82a Western Patrician Romans (408 AD – 493 AD) add II/70a Burgundi Army (250 AD – 534 AD)
(Army II/70a lists II/82a as an enemy, but II/82a only lists II/70a? as an ally.)
In the older version, II/82a are Later Visigoths and do have the Burgundi as an enemy. Adding new armies to 3.0 and copying army lists and enemies might be the reason for the inconsistency. The Burgundi were foederati and therefore ally of Rome.
Action:
Would not add the Burgundi as enemy of II/82a.
They were feoderati and thus an ally of Rome.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 17, 2017 14:56:39 GMT
Here are some more errors from Book II (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
II/82b Eastern Patrician Romans (408 AD – 493 AD) remove II/80b Sabir Hunnic Army (515 AD – 558 AD)
(II/82b lists II/80b as an enemy, but II/80b does not mention II/82b, and the dates don’t match)
The dating the Sabir Hunnic list was changed from 2.2 (463 – 558 AD) to 3.0 (515 – 558 AD) and this would account for the error.
Action:
Remove II/80b from II/82b Eastern Patrician Romans (408 AD – 493 AD).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 17, 2017 14:59:20 GMT
Here are some more errors from Book II (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
III/1c Southern Slavs (476 AD – 896 AD) change II/83b to II/82b Eastern Patrician Romans (408 AD – 493 AD)
(Army II/82b lists III/1c as an enemy, but III/1c mentions II/83b Later Visigoths, who were far to the west by then.
I think the Southern Slavs have got II/83b mixed up with II/82b)
The error may be related to the change of list number from 2.2 to 3.0 and/or the revision of the Slav lists from Wends, Bohemians and Others to Northern, Western and Southern Slavs.
I find more evidence of the Southern Slavs (Sklaveni and Antae) in conflict with the Early Byzantine than against the Patrician Roman in the brief period between 476 and 493 AD.
Action:
Would not add unless anyone has information to the contrary.
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Post by stevie on Mar 18, 2017 14:02:38 GMT
The I/6a Early Bedouin Problem.
There are over a dozen wrong dates in the I/6a Early Bedouin army list, and the dozen enemy lists they relate too, even though these are already listed as mutual enemies.
Now there are two ways to resolve these issues...the easy way or the hard way.
Option 1: the easy way – just change the 1/6a Early Bedouin end date from 1001 BC to 650 BC.
Then all the date discrepancies disappear and the mutual enemies are compatible.
The date has to be stretched to at least 650 BC so that the later entries, I/51 and I/53, are in alignment.
(And the fact that the I/6a Bedouins will overlap the I/6b Early Arabs is not a problem...it just means that some of the less wealthy smaller nomadic tribes were slower to change over to the new expensive camel elements, so they stayed with their older more traditional troops for longer.)
Option 2: the hard way – all the following changes will need to be made, just because the dates don’t match:-
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/21b, I/25b, I/31b, I/34abc, I/38, I/44ab, I/45, I/46b, I/51, I/53.
I/21b Later Babylonians (889 BC – 747 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/31b Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (900 BC – 710 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/34a Later Hebrews (1000 BC – 969 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/34b Later Hebrews (968 BC – 800 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/34c Later Hebrews (799 BC – 586 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/38 Libyan Egyptians (946 BC – 712 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/44a Early Neo- Babylonians (746 BC – 605 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/44b Later Neo-Babylonians (604 BC – 482 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/45 Neo-Assyrians (745 BC – 681 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/46b Kushite Egyptians (727 BC – 664 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/51 Later Sargonid Assyrian (680 BC – 609 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/53 Saitic Egyptians (664 BC – 335 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
(Note that all the above armies are already mutual enemies with the I/6b Early Arabs of 1000 BC – 312 BC, which is what the I/6a Early Bedouins of 3000 BC – 1001 BC eventually evolve into.
It looks like I/6b is a new addition that was meant to update and replace the earlier I/6a enemy, but none the above armies got the original I/6a enemy removed, resulting in the old dates for I/6a being hopelessly wrong.)
Personally, I think option 1 is the better choice.
* It’s much less work for the players (26 deletions or 1 date change - I know which one I prefer!)....
* It gives people the choice of fielding an old fashioned all foot instead of a partial camel army if they so wish....
* And it’s probably more historically accurate as well (I seriously doubt that every single Bedouin tribe in the world was able to swap to camels at exactly the same time in the year 1000 BC).
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Post by stevie on Mar 18, 2017 14:46:10 GMT
In addition to the previous post, the following changes will still need to be made:-
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/60a Early Achaemenid Persian (550 BC – 547 BC)
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/60c Early Achaemenid Persian (539 BC – 420 BC)
I/60c Early Achaemenid Persian (539 BC – 420 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
(Army I/6a lists both I/60a and I/60c as enemies, but the dates are clearly wrong, and I/60a doesn’t mention I/6a.
I/6a had already evolved into I/6b in 1000 BC, and I/6b is already listed as a mutual enemy of I/60a and I/60c.)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC)
I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
(Although I/6c and I/25b are listed as mutual enemies, the dates don’t match.
Army I/6c evolved into I/31ab in 1100 BC, and I/25b and I/31b are already correctly listed as mutual enemies.)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove I/31a Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (1100 BC – 901 BC)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove I/31b Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (900 BC – 710 BC)
I/31a Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (1100 BC – 901 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
I/31b Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (900 BC – 710 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
(The dates don’t match as I/6c has evolved into I/31a and I/31b, and these are already listed as internal enemies.)
I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC) add II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC)
II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC) change I/6c to I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC)
(Army I/6c had already evolved into I/31ab in 1100 BC, and even these were extinguished by 710 BC.
Army I/6b Early Arabs should be the correct mutual enemy of the II/7 Later Persians.)
I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC) add II/12 Alexander (359 BC – 319 BC)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/12 Alexander (359 BC – 319 BC)
II/12 Alexander (359 BC – 319 BC) change I/6c to I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC)
(As mentioned, army I/6c had already evolved into I/31ab in 1100 BC, and even these were extinguished by 710 BC.
Army I/6b Early Arabs should be the correct mutual enemy of II/12 Alexander.
Alexander’s siege of Gaza in 332 BC and his death in 323 BC is too early for armies II/22 or II/23, which both start in 312 BC.)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/16a Antigonos (320 BC – 301 BC)
(As above, army I/6c was long gone by 320 BC, and II/16a doesn’t mention them.
The II/22f Any Arabo-Aramaeans Before 126 BC are already mutual enemies of II/16a Antigonos.)
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/19a Seleucid (320 BC – 280 BC)
II/19a Seleucid (320 BC – 280 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
(Again, army I/6c was long gone by 320 BC, and II/19a Seleucid already has plenty of Arabs to fight with II/22f Any Arabo-Aramaeans and II/23a Nomadic Arabs.)
I’ve made the following chart in order to make the evolution of the Bedouins & Arabs according to DBA clearer:-
I/6a Early Bedouins (3000 - 1001 BC...650 BC would be better)
Aamu, Amurru/Amorites/Martu, Sutu, Hanu, Aramaeans are nomadic tribes in Syria
Midianites, Amalekites, Isammes, Nabaitayai, Kidrayans, Atarsaman are nomadic Arabs
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|-------------------------------------------------|
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------| I/8 Makkan/Dilmun/Saba/Ma’in/Qataban (2800 – 312 BC)
| | Arabian Peninsula eastern and southern coastal kingdoms.
I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 – 1101 BC) | | nomads of northern Syria. | |
| | |
| I/15 Later Amorites (1894 – 1595 BC)--------| |
| of northern Syria, Babylon and Assyria, | |
| Karkemish, Qatna, Ebla, Mari, Aleppo. | |
| | |
| I/6b Midianites/Amalekites (1500 - 312 BC) |
I/31 Later Aramaeans (1100 – 710 BC) and Early Arab Nomads (1000 - 312 BC) |
of Syria and south to Damascus, of Mesopotamia and Arabia. ----------------------| |
until conquered by the Assyrians, | | |
Babylonians and Persians. | | |
II/22 Arabo-Aramaeans (312 BC – 240 AD) II/23 Later Arabs (312 BC – 633 AD)
kingdoms of Syria and west of the Syrian Desert: Arabian Peninsula nomads & kingdoms:
such as Edessa, Emesa, Hatra, Singara, such as Medina, Mecca, Oman, Yemen.
Adiabene, Characenene/Mesene, Nabataea.
(Palmyra only became independent in 260 AD)
Source: mostly from the DBMM Army Lists of Book I and Book II.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 18, 2017 15:02:24 GMT
The I/6a Early Bedouin Problem.
There are over a dozen wrong dates in the I/6a Early Bedouin army list, and the dozen enemy lists they relate too, even though these are already listed as mutual enemies.
Now there are two ways to resolve these issues...the easy way or the hard way.
Option 1: the easy way – just change the 1/6a Early Bedouin end date from 1001 BC to 650 BC.
Then all the date discrepancies disappear and the mutual enemies are compatible.
The date has to be stretched to at least 650 BC so that the later entries, I/51 and I/53, are in alignment.
(And the fact that the I/6a Bedouins will overlap the I/6b Early Arabs is not a problem...it just means that some of the less wealthy smaller nomadic tribes were slower to change over to the new expensive camel elements, so they stayed with their older more traditional troops for longer.)
Option 2: the hard way – all the following changes will need to be made, just because the dates don’t match:-
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/21b, I/25b, I/31b, I/34abc, I/38, I/44ab, I/45, I/46b, I/51, I/53.
I/21b Later Babylonians (889 BC – 747 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/31b Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (900 BC – 710 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/34a Later Hebrews (1000 BC – 969 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/34b Later Hebrews (968 BC – 800 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/34c Later Hebrews (799 BC – 586 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/38 Libyan Egyptians (946 BC – 712 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/44a Early Neo- Babylonians (746 BC – 605 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/44b Later Neo-Babylonians (604 BC – 482 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/45 Neo-Assyrians (745 BC – 681 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/46b Kushite Egyptians (727 BC – 664 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/51 Later Sargonid Assyrian (680 BC – 609 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
I/53 Saitic Egyptians (664 BC – 335 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
(Note that all the above armies are already mutual enemies with the I/6b Early Arabs of 1000 BC – 312 BC, which is what the I/6a Early Bedouins of 3000 BC – 1001 BC eventually evolve into.
It looks like I/6b is a new addition that was meant to update and replace the earlier I/6a enemy, but none the above armies got the original I/6a enemy removed, resulting in the old dates for I/6a being hopelessly wrong.)
Personally, I think option 1 is the better choice.
* It’s much less work for the players (26 deletions or 1 date change - I know which one I prefer!)....
* It gives people the choice of fielding an old fashioned all foot instead of a partial camel army if they so wish....
* And it’s probably more historically accurate as well (I seriously doubt that every single Bedouin tribe in the world was able to swap to camels at exactly the same time in the year 1000 BC).
A quick comparison of the two versions, 2.2 used the generic Early Bedouin title for all three sub-lists.
The newer version refined that list by renaming two of the sub-lists and redefined their dates.
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC to 1001 BC) is extended by 499 years and presumably adding more enemies.
I/6b as Midianite or Amalekite (1500 BC to 312 BC) and early Arab Army (1000 BC – 312 BC) with the former overlapping I/6a.
I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 312 BC).
The older version list 16 enemies for I/6a and the newer version now lists 35.
Option 2 is clearly the better choice.
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Post by stevie on Mar 18, 2017 15:28:06 GMT
Very well...we'll do it the hard way then.
Group #1 on page 5 updated.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 18, 2017 16:50:47 GMT
Here are some more Later Visigothic errors from Book II:-
II/70a Army of the Burgundi (250 AD – 534 AD) add II/83a Later Visigothic Army (419 AD – 621 AD)
(Army II/83a lists II/70a as an enemy, but II/70a does not mention II/83a)
These were correctly listed as mutual enemies in the older version, but then the Later Visigoths were II/82 which became later the Patrician Roman Army in 3.0. The enemy lists were not adjusted.
Action:
Add II/83a Later Visigothic Army (419 AD – 621 AD) to II/70a Army of the Burgundi (250 AD – 534 AD)
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