Historical Opponents?

montyburns
Munifex

Posts: 23

Historical Opponents? Feb 7, 2017 20:10:37 GMT Les1964 likes this

Quote

Post by montyburns on Feb 7, 2017 20:10:37 GMT

Hi.
A few possible mistakes I've spotted with the listed historical opponents.

II/82a Western Patrician Roman lists III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD) as an enemy.
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) lists II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD) & III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD).
II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
lists II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) & III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD).

III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) lists II/82a Western Patrician Roman & II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)

Of these II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
against III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) seems ok (loss of the last Byzantine territory in Spain to the Visigoths in 624 AD) but the others all seem like mistakes caused by the Visigoths and Patrician Romans switching between II/82 & II/83 with the move from 2.2 to 3.

III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) & III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD) do not list one another as enemies though the notes for the Rus mention them attacking the Khazars & they were responsible for the destruction of Khazars capital and shattering it empire around 965 AD.

Thoughts on any of these?

Haardrada
Senator

Posts: 1,466

Historical Opponents? Feb 7, 2017 22:24:39 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by Haardrada on Feb 7, 2017 22:24:39 GMT

Feb 7, 2017 20:10:37 GMT montyburns said:

Hi.
A few possible mistakes I've spotted with the listed historical opponents.

II/82a Western Patrician Roman lists III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD) as an enemy.
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) lists II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD) & III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD).
II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
lists II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) & III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD).

III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) lists II/82a Western Patrician Roman & II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)

Of these II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
against III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) seems ok (loss of the last Byzantine territory in Spain to the Visigoths in 624 AD) but the others all seem like mistakes caused by the Visigoths and Patrician Romans switching between II/82 & II/83 with the move from 2.2 to 3.

III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) & III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD) do not list one another as enemies though the notes for the Rus mention them attacking the Khazars & they were responsible for the destruction of Khazars capital and shattering it empire around 965 AD.

Thoughts on any of these?

I have come across simular omissions, one being the Early Swiss list (IV/41) not having IV/74 Free Company as an enemy.The GugglerKreig of Dec.1375 saw 3 engagements where approx.1,200 Knights alone in the fighting before the English Mercenaries withdrew.

Dangun Beneficiarii Posts: 74	Historical Opponents? Feb 8, 2017 8:44:43 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Dangun on Feb 8, 2017 8:44:43 GMT There is a lot of erroneous dates too. But these never get fixed, nor is there any clearing house for compiling and vetting the errors.
	Dangun (Nicholas Spratt) instagram.com/travel.papa

Tony Aguilar
Senator

Praecō

Posts: 1,251

Historical Opponents? Feb 8, 2017 12:36:15 GMT shrimplyamazing likes this

Quote

Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 8, 2017 12:36:15 GMT

Version 2.2 had several errors on enemies and that is just with the few armies I had.

There is no better substitute for doing your own research on who an army fights.

It is also relatively easy to do.

Check out my DBA videos: www.youtube.com/channel/UCbRAe5rGG3lYIHXFgkrC3wQ?view_as=subscriber

bob Tribune Posts: 790	Historical Opponents? Feb 8, 2017 16:34:37 GMT Obadiah likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by bob on Feb 8, 2017 16:34:37 GMT Phil has written that there are no errors in DBA 3, so what is there for him to fix ?

Haardrada Senator Posts: 1,466	Historical Opponents? Feb 8, 2017 22:33:46 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Haardrada on Feb 8, 2017 22:33:46 GMT Feb 8, 2017 16:34:37 GMT bob said: Phil has written that there are no errors in DBA 3, so what is there for him to fix ? The errors.😆

Dangun Beneficiarii Posts: 74	Historical Opponents? Feb 9, 2017 0:37:44 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Dangun on Feb 9, 2017 0:37:44 GMT Feb 8, 2017 16:34:37 GMT bob said: Phil has written that there are no errors in DBA 3, so what is there for him to fix ? Excellent
	Dangun (Nicholas Spratt) instagram.com/travel.papa

montyburns
Munifex

Posts: 23

Historical Opponents? Feb 9, 2017 3:50:45 GMT

Quote

Post by montyburns on Feb 9, 2017 3:50:45 GMT

Feb 7, 2017 22:24:39 GMT Haardrada said:

Feb 7, 2017 20:10:37 GMT montyburns said:

I have come across simular omissions, one being the Early Swiss list (IV/41) not having IV/74 Free Company as an enemy.The GugglerKreig of Dec.1375 saw 3 engagements where approx.1,200 Knights alone in the fighting before the English Mercenaries withdrew.

Hadn't noticed that one was missing even though its the Free Company I was most interested in doing as a DBA army ever since I saw it translated as the hoodie war.

montyburns
Munifex

Posts: 23

Historical Opponents? Feb 10, 2017 21:51:23 GMT

Quote

Post by montyburns on Feb 10, 2017 21:51:23 GMT

III/52 West Frankish & Norman (888 AD - 1072 AD) are listed as an enemy of III/30b Magyar (896 AD - 1003 AD) but not vice versa.
Instead III/30b Magyar(896 AD - 1003 AD) is listed as an enemy of III/53 East Frankish (888 AD - 1106 AD) but again the reverse isn't listed.

This seems like a simple misprint where III/52 on the enemy list FOR III/30b should instead be III/53.

weddier Munifex Posts: 33	Historical Opponents? Feb 11, 2017 4:19:12 GMT Haardrada likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weddier on Feb 11, 2017 4:19:12 GMT Possibly we should just bring these to the attention of the FAQ keepers to add to the bottom.

lkmjbc
Tribune

Posts: 926

Historical Opponents? Feb 17, 2017 23:47:21 GMT

Quote

Post by lkmjbc on Feb 17, 2017 23:47:21 GMT

Feb 11, 2017 4:19:12 GMT weddier said:

Possibly we should just bring these to the attention of the FAQ keepers to add to the bottom.

I probably won't put it on the FAQ... but I would like to keep a database for a future version of DBA.

3.1?

Could we make a wiki page for this?

Joe Collins

montyburns
Munifex

Posts: 23

Historical Opponents? Feb 18, 2017 7:39:53 GMT

Quote

Post by montyburns on Feb 18, 2017 7:39:53 GMT

Feb 17, 2017 23:47:21 GMT lkmjbc said:

Feb 11, 2017 4:19:12 GMT weddier said:

Possibly we should just bring these to the attention of the FAQ keepers to add to the bottom.

I probably won't put it on the FAQ... but I would like to keep a database for a future version of DBA.

3.1?

Could we make a wiki page for this?

Joe Collins

Seems like a good idea. From this thread & fanaticus.boards.net/thread/371/dumb-early-german-enemies-question along with some others I've since found so far we have the following changes to enemies

II/47e Marcomanni Army of Maroboduus, (9 BC-19 AD) remove II/64a Middle Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (193-324 AD)
II/64a Middle Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (193-324 AD) remove II/47e - Marcomanni Army of Maroboduus, (9 BC-19 AD)
II/67b Greuthingi, Early Ostrogothic, Herul, Sciri and Taifali ( 200 AD - 493 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) add II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)
II/72b Alamanni (250 AD - 506 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/72b Alamanni (250 AD - 506 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/73 Old Saxon, Frisian, Bavarian, Thuringian (250 AD - 804 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/73 Old Saxon, Frisian, Bavarian, Thuringian (250 AD - 804 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/78a Late Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (307-408 AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/78a Late Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (307-408 AD) add II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) add II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)
II/81c Sub-Roman British - Armorican Army (429 AD - 580 AD) clarify II/82 to II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/81c Sub-Roman British - Armorican Army (429 AD - 580 AD) clarify II/83 to II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/82a Western Patrician Roman add III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD)
II/82a Western Patrician Roman remove III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD)
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) remove III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD)
II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD) remove II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)
III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
III/5a Middle Frankish - Austrasian or Burgandian (496 AD - 639 AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
III/5a Middle Frankish - Austrasian or Burgandian (496 AD - 639 AD) add II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) add III/25b Arab Conquest (639 AD - 660 AD)
III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) add III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD)
III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
III/30b Magyar (896 AD - 1003 AD) remove III/52 West Frankish & Norman (888 AD - 1072 AD)
III/30b Magyar(896 AD - 1003 AD) add III/53 East Frankish (888 AD - 1106 AD)
III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD) add III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD)
IV/41 Early Swiss add IV/74 Free Company
IV/74 Free Company add IV/41 Early Swiss

Last Edit: Feb 18, 2017 7:41:46 GMT by montyburns

stevie
Emperor

Posts: 3,195

Historical Opponents? Feb 18, 2017 10:57:02 GMT

Quote

Post by stevie on Feb 18, 2017 10:57:02 GMT

Feb 17, 2017 23:47:21 GMT lkmjbc said:

Feb 11, 2017 4:19:12 GMT weddier said:

Possibly we should just bring these to the attention of the FAQ keepers to add to the bottom.

I probably won't put it on the FAQ... but I would like to keep a database for a future version of DBA.

3.1?

Could we make a wiki page for this?

Joe Collins

That is an excellent idea Joe.
But I think it might also be good to keep this very informative thread going as an easy place for people post their Army List anomalies. Once this list grows a bit and most of the discrepancies have been found it could then be compiled and placed in the wiki.
(Any volunteers? I’ll do it if nobody else does, but I am by no means a wiki expert, and I’m sure there are others who would be more qualified).

In the mean time, here are a few more:-

II/10 Camillan Romans and II/28c Early Armenians should not be enemies of each other.
(Rome at this period had not even set foot outside of Italy, so could not possibly have reached all the way into deep eastern Anatolia at this time.)

II/15 Alexandrian Imperial and II/20a Ptolemaic armies should be mutual enemies of each other.
(When Alexander died in 323 BC, Perdiccas became regent and overall commander of the Imperial Army, but he was not very popular. After Ptolemy pinched Alexander’s body (!) in 321 BC, Perdiccas invaded Egypt. But this invasion was a failure, his men mutinied, and Perdiccas was assassinated.)

II/18c Kassandros and II/18f Queen Olympias should be mutual enemies of each other.
(The mother of Alexander the Great executed Cassander’s brother and his followers after he declared himself regent in 317 BC, then was forced back to Pydna and besieged there by him. After the city’s surrender in 316 BC, Cassander had her put to death by stoning. I’d say that makes them pretty good enemies!)

II/33 Polybian Romans and II/47a Cimbri-Teutones should be mutual enemies of each other.
(The Cimbri and their allies the Teutones inflicted crushing defeats on the Polybian Romans at Noreia in 112 BC, in Gallia Narbonensis and Burdigala in 109 BC, and at the battles of the Rhone and Arausio in 105 BC, where Rome lost as many as 80,000 men. It was the panic caused by these disasters that led to Gaius Marius' unconstitutional election as Consul for a 5 year period and his military reforms in 104 BC.)

Some potentially useful player aids can be found here:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

Last Edit: Feb 20, 2017 18:17:02 GMT by stevie: Made the army name bold for clarity

montyburns
Munifex

Posts: 23

Historical Opponents? Feb 18, 2017 18:44:59 GMT

Quote

Post by montyburns on Feb 18, 2017 18:44:59 GMT

Feb 18, 2017 10:57:02 GMT stevie said:

Feb 17, 2017 23:47:21 GMT lkmjbc said:

I probably won't put it on the FAQ... but I would like to keep a database for a future version of DBA.

3.1?

Could we make a wiki page for this?

Joe Collins

That is an excellent idea Joe.
But I think it might also be good to keep this very informative thread going as an easy place for people post their Army List anomalies. Once this list grows a bit and most of the discrepancies have been found it could then be compiled and placed in the wiki.
(Any volunteers? I’ll do it if nobody else does, but I am by no means a wiki expert, and I’m sure there are others who would be more qualified).

I would be willing to do it as well. Again no wiki expert but it should be pretty straightforward. Added your ones to the list. The Camillan Roman Armenian enemy in my copy was II/28b so I've gone with that.

II/10 Camillan Roman (400 BC - 245 BC) remove II/28b Other Armenian Army (300 BC - 244 AD)
II/15 Alexandrian Imperial (328 BC - 321 BC) add II/20a Ptolemaic Army (320 BC - 275 BC)
II/18c Kassandros (318 BC - 298 BC) and II/18f Queen Olympias (317 BC - 316 BC)
II/18f Queen Olympias' Army (317 BC - 316 BC) add II/18c Kassandros (318 BC - 298 BC)
II/20a Ptolemaic Army (320 BC - 275 BC) add II/15 Alexandrian Imperial (328 BC - 321 BC)
II/28b Other Armenian Army (300 BC - 244 AD) remove II/10 Camillan Roman (400 BC - 245 BC)
II/33 Polybian Roman (275 BC - 105 BC) add II/47a Cimbri or Teutones (113 BC -102 BC)
II/47a Cimbri or Teutones (113 BC -102 BC) add II/33 Polybian Roman (275 BC - 105 BC)
II/47e Marcomanni Army of Maroboduus (9 BC-19 AD) remove II/64a Middle Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (193-324 AD)
II/64a Middle Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (193-324 AD) remove II/47e - Marcomanni Army of Maroboduus (9 BC-19 AD)
II/67b Greuthingi, Early Ostrogothic, Herul, Sciri and Taifali ( 200 AD - 493 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) add II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)
II/72b Alamanni (250 AD - 506 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/72b Alamanni (250 AD - 506 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/73 Old Saxon, Frisian, Bavarian, Thuringian (250 AD - 804 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/73 Old Saxon, Frisian, Bavarian, Thuringian (250 AD - 804 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/78a Late Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (307-408 AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/78a Late Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (307-408 AD) add II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) add II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)
II/81c Sub-Roman British - Armorican Army (429 AD - 580 AD) clarify II/82 to II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
II/81c Sub-Roman British - Armorican Army (429 AD - 580 AD) clarify II/83 to II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
II/82a Western Patrician Roman add III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD)
II/82a Western Patrician Roman remove III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD)
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) remove III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD)
II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD) remove II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)

III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
III/5a Middle Frankish - Austrasian or Burgandian (496 AD - 639 AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
III/5a Middle Frankish - Austrasian or Burgandian (496 AD - 639 AD) add II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) add III/25b Arab Conquest (639 AD - 660 AD)
III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD) add III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD)
III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575AD - 650AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD)
III/30b Magyar (896 AD - 1003 AD) remove III/52 West Frankish & Norman (888 AD - 1072 AD)
III/30b Magyar(896 AD - 1003 AD) add III/53 East Frankish (888 AD - 1106 AD)
III/48 Rus (860 AD - 1054 AD) add III/16 Khazar (568 AD - 1083 AD)

IV/41 Early Swiss (1240 AD - 1400 AD) add IV/74 Free Company (1357 AD -1410 AD & 1444 AD)
IV/74 Free Company (1357 AD -1410 AD & 1444 AD) add IV/41 Early Swiss (1240 AD - 1400 AD)

Some potentially useful player aids can be found here:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

Last Edit: Feb 18, 2017 18:47:40 GMT by montyburns

bob
Tribune

Posts: 790

Historical Opponents? Feb 18, 2017 20:17:25 GMT

Quote

Post by bob on Feb 18, 2017 20:17:25 GMT

I think it's important to differentiate between unmatched armies according to Phil and armies according to other people that shouldn't be matched or should be. There are a number of anomalies, (I can't call them errors because Phil says there are none). These are example of where one army is listed as an enemy of the other but the other is not likewise listed. There also armies with enemies that are not within the timeframe that is given for them.

I would like to see a list of all of these. But I don't want these mixed up with armies that other people think should be in the book . It would be interesting to see such a list, but I think for the purposes of consistency in tournaments we should stick to those armies that Phil himself has identified.

Post by montyburns on Feb 7, 2017 20:10:37 GMT

Post by Haardrada on Feb 7, 2017 22:24:39 GMT

Post by Dangun on Feb 8, 2017 8:44:43 GMT

Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 8, 2017 12:36:15 GMT

Post by bob on Feb 8, 2017 16:34:37 GMT

Post by Haardrada on Feb 8, 2017 22:33:46 GMT

Post by Dangun on Feb 9, 2017 0:37:44 GMT

Post by montyburns on Feb 9, 2017 3:50:45 GMT

Post by montyburns on Feb 10, 2017 21:51:23 GMT

Post by weddier on Feb 11, 2017 4:19:12 GMT

Post by lkmjbc on Feb 17, 2017 23:47:21 GMT

Post by montyburns on Feb 18, 2017 7:39:53 GMT

Post by stevie on Feb 18, 2017 10:57:02 GMT

Post by montyburns on Feb 18, 2017 18:44:59 GMT

Post by bob on Feb 18, 2017 20:17:25 GMT