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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 20:50:14 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
It is a good idea to place the army list anomalies in one location, but I would prefer to read a statement of what is determined as an error with a separate line describing what action is required.
This would make additional research somewhat easier.
Taking the list that is currently posted, I looked at a few of these.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 20:53:02 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/47e Marcomanni Army of Maroboduus, (9 BC-19 AD) remove II/64a Middle Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (193-324 AD).
II/64a Middle Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (193-324 AD) remove II/47e - Marcomanni Army of Maroboduus, (9 BC-19 AD).
The Marcomanni are a new entry to the Early German list (II/47) and based on my own reading since October 2016, it is quite possible that the title is merely incomplete.
The Early German lists (II/47) ends at 250 AD, but the Marcomanni did clash with the Rome during 166 AD – 180 (Marcus Aurelius) and again during the mid-3rd century as part of a coalition with the Quadi and Sarmatia in Pannonia.
Action:
Suggest entry remain as is, but the title should reflect the additional confrontations.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 20:55:41 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/67b Greuthingi, Early Ostrogothic, Herul, Sciri and Taifali (200 AD - 493 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD).
Action:
II/83b should be removed from the Greuthingi enemy list as the correct entry II/83a is already listed.
In addition II/67b should be removed from the enemy list for II/83b and added to II/83a Later Visigoths (419 AD – 620 AD).
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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 20:58:05 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) remove from II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD).
Action:
Place entry to the correct sub-list II/83a Later Visigothic (419 – 620 AD).
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD) as they are listed as an enemy of the Western Patrician Roman.
II/71 Gepid (250 AD -566 AD) add II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) as they are listed as an enemy of Eastern Patrician Roman.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 21:01:25 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/72b Alamanni (250 AD - 506 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD).
I am not sure about this request as the Kingdom of Toulouse (Later Visigoths) would have fought the Alamanni in the Gallic provinces.
Action: Invite further comment?
II/72b Alamanni (250 AD - 506 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD) as they are listed as an enemy for the Western Patrician Roman.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 21:03:37 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/73 Old Saxon, Frisian, Bavarian, Thuringian (250 AD - 804 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD).
One primary source (Sidonius?) describes the 5th century piratical raids along the coasts of Gallia and Hispania as executed by the ‘Saxons’. Their raids place them as enemies for the II/81a,b,c and d Sub-Roman Britain and II/82a Western Patrician Roman.
Action:
Consider keeping them as an enemy of the II/83a Later Visigothic list.
II/73 Old Saxon, Frisian, Bavarian, Thuringian (250 AD - 804 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD) as it is listed as an enemy for II/82a Western Patrician Roman.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 18, 2017 21:11:39 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/78a Late Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (307-408 AD) remove II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD).
Action:
I am not convinced.
The overlap reflects a period of civil war in the west similar to the Middle Imperial Roman (Maxentius) vs. the Later Imperial Roman (Constantine), but now involves the Imperial forces (II/78a) led by Stilicho fighting the cobbled forces (II/82a) of Constantine III.
II/78a Late Imperial Romans - Western Roman Army (307-408 AD) add II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD).
Action:
This may not be correct as the Early Visigothic (II/65b and c) are listed as an enemy of the Late Imperial Roman army.
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Post by stevie on Feb 19, 2017 0:30:20 GMT
I probably won't put it on the FAQ... but I would like to keep a database for a future version of DBA. 3.1? Could we make a wiki page for this? Joe Collins I would be willing to do it as well. Again no wiki expert but it should be pretty straightforward. Good on ya’ montyburns! And you were right; it should have been II/28b Early Armenians (my mistake). I agree with timurilank....it would be better if you edited your first post and put this list up there. It would make it easier for people to see what has already been discovered and prevent duplications. And bob, I can see what you are saying, but this player created Army List Corrections is only advisory...the original Army Lists will still exist, and players can double check things for themselves (as indeed timurilank has done). So if people wish to believe that the Camilian Romans could magically teleport themselves some 2,000 kilometres, or that Queen Olympia died of old age, or ignore the destruction of 5 Polybian armies by the Cimbri, they are free to do so. (Sorry, but if it comes to a choice between Phil Barker’s version of history via an Army List with anomalies or actual history books, I’ll go with the history books every time.) But you and timurilank right; people should give reasons why they think any entry is incorrect so that others can cross-check to see if their assertion is accurate. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by stevie on Feb 19, 2017 0:32:28 GMT
Anyway, here are a few more:-
II/3a Classical Indians (500 BC – 178 AD) remove II/42b Tamil Indian & Sinihalese (301 AD - 1370 AD)
(These dates don’t match)
II/19c Seleucid Army (204 BC – 167 BC) add II/2 Mountain Indians (500 BC – 170 BC)
II/19c Seleucid Army (204 BC – 167 BC) add II/3a Classical Indians (500 BC – 178 AD)
II/19d Seleucid Army (166 BC – 64 BC) remove II/2 Mountain Indians (500 BC – 170 BC)
II/19d Seleucid Army (166 BC – 64 BC) remove II/3a Classical Indians (500 BC – 178 AD)
(In the case of the Mountain Indians the dates don’t match. And anyway, Mithridates I king of Parthia 165-132 BC, had already taken over Sogdia and would soon take control of Bactria, so the Seleucids of the 166-64 BC period couldn’t have marched through both Parthia and the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom to reach India.)
II/21a Ch’iang and Ti Chinese (315 BC – 301 AD) remove II/4d Other Chinese (480 BC – 356 BC)
(I don’t know much about Chinese armies, but these dates don’t match.)
II/23c Yemeni Army (312 BC -633 AD) change II/69 to II/69c Sassanid Persians (494 AD – 651 AD) II/69c Sassanid Persians (494 AD – 651 AD) add II/23c Yemeni Army (312 BC -633 AD)
(This is a bit of a mess. II/23c lists II/69a to II/69c as enemies, but II/69c does not mention II/23c as an enemy, although II/23c does list II/69c as allies. It looks like the 'c' got missed out of the II/69 entry.)
II/28d Gordyene Army (147 BC – 225 AD) remove II/69c Sassanid Persians (494 AD – 651 AD)
(An easier one this time...the dates don’t match)
II/29 Tien & K’un-Ming Chinese (295 BC – 45 AD) change II/4d to II/4e Other Chinese Armies (355 BC -202 BC)
II/4e Other Chinese Armies (355 BC -202 BC) add II/29 Tien & K’un-Ming Chinese (295 BC – 45 AD)
(The entry for II/4d has the wrong dates, 480 BC – 356 BC, and neither II/4d or II/4e mentions II/29 as an enemy.)
II/33 Polybian Roman (275 BC -105 BC) remove II/19d Seleucid Army (166 BC – 64 BC)
(II/19d does not list II/33 as an enemy, nor can I find any records of the two fighting each other. By 100 BC the once mighty Seleucid Empire had destroyed itself through almost continuous civil wars and consisted of little more than Antioch and a few Syrian cities. It only continued to exist because the major powers of the region couldn’t be bothered to conquer it until Pompey annexed Syria to Rome in 63 BC. So if II/19d and II/33 are to be enemies, then technically so should II/49 Marian Rome...but it’s probably not worth it.)
Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by Dangun on Feb 19, 2017 6:47:37 GMT
Do we just want internal consistency.
Or is it worth talking about the bad history of some of the lists?
Dates out by centuries etc.
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Post by montyburns on Feb 19, 2017 7:06:41 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
It is a good idea to place the army list anomalies in one location, but I would prefer to read a statement of what is determined as an error with a separate line describing what action is required.
This would make additional research somewhat easier.
Good point. I hadn't included this for brevity but will post an updated list with reasoning tonight. |
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Post by timurilank on Feb 19, 2017 8:56:59 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) remove II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
I am not sure about this as Honorius employed Huns as ‘foederati’ in his campaign against the Visigoths and Burgundi. This begs the question did they act independent of Roman command as did the Franks fulfilling their ‘feodus’ with Rome fighting the barbarian invasion of 406 AD or did they serve as ‘allies’ of the Western Patrician Romans?
Action:
Anyone have any information as to why this should be removed?
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) are listed as an enemy of the II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD)
Action:
Agree.
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) add II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD).
Action:
The omission does seem strange as II/80d are listed as an enemy of the Western Patrician Roman.
II/80d Other Hunnic Armies (374 AD - 558 AD) add II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD)
Action:
Agree for the same reason stated above.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 19, 2017 8:57:53 GMT
II/81c Sub-Roman British - Armorican Army (429 AD - 580 AD) clarify II/82 to II/82a Western Patrician Roman (307-408 AD) (408 AD – 493 AD).
Action:
Agree.
II/81c Sub-Roman British - Armorican Army (429 AD - 580 AD) clarify II/83 to II/83a Later Visigothic (419 AD - 621 AD)
Action:
Agree.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 19, 2017 8:59:38 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/82a Western Patrician Roman (408 AD – 493 AD) add III/2 Early Lombard (489 AD - 584 AD).
This is somewhat of a mystery as the Western Patrician is not listed as an enemy of the Early Lombard. Reading ‘History of the Langobards’ by Paul the Deacon (7th c.) places the tribe north of the Danube during the period in question (489 AD – 493 AD) and in conflict with the Herul.
Action:
Does anyone else have any information on this?
II/82a Western Patrician Roman (408 AD – 493 AD) remove III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD)
Action:
Agreed.
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) remove II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD).
Action:
Agreed.
II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD) remove III/17 Maurikanian Byzantine (575 AD - 650 AD)
Action:
Agreed.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 19, 2017 9:00:46 GMT
DBA3 Historical opponents
II/83b Later Visigothic (622 AD - 720 AD) remove II/82b Eastern Patrician Roman (408 AD - 493 AD).
Action:
Agreed.
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