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Post by ronisan on Aug 2, 2023 14:36:22 GMT
Hello Brian,
if your line of mounted contacts your line of infantry, your mounted can only move around your infantry by using single element moves (1 PIP per element!).
If your line of mounted stays behind your infantry (minimum 1 BW from rear edge infantry to rear edge mounted!), then your flank element of mounted can pivot on its front corner and is able to form a column for a group move (1 PIP).
Regards,
Ronald
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Post by hodsopa on Aug 2, 2023 17:28:33 GMT
Hi Brian, in my group we've been playing it that "forward" for the lead unit equates to "forward of square", in cricketing terms. (I knew nothing about cricket but have been caught by that bug this summer.)
That is, your move as described was illegal because the lead unit turned 90º - but would have been OK if it had turned 89º.
Then, the following units move freely to form a column (orthogonal or, if necessary because of terrain or other units or constraint (1), with a kink or kinks in it) within the two constraints of (1) not ending up to the rear of their starting position (comparing the position of front edges before and after) - this is effectively the same constraint as for the lead unit and is not normally an issue; and (2) neither front corner moving further than its maximum move distance (this is quite often a constraint and can mean, after measuring, that the lead unit has to be pulled back to remain in contact with the rest of the column).
I'd be interested to hear more views on this.
Paul H
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Post by timurilank on Aug 3, 2023 7:29:12 GMT
Ah…this is a tricky one. Technically, I would say that according to the rules, the move described by Brian is not possible because:- ① the leading element is not moving straight forwards…it’s changing its facing by turning 90°. ② and if it did make such a move, then part of it’s front-edge would end up behind it’s starting line. I think the confusion is caused by the “No element can end with its front edge further to its original rear”. I take this to mean the front-edge’s original rear…not the original rear-edge of the element. Of course, it could move straight forwards, then turn, provided its front-edge does not end up behind the front-edge's original starting line, all in a single move, with the other elements following doing the same. So instead of an easy manœuver we have to wind like a snake or a shyster to conform to the rules?  Note: the front-edge doesn’t fall back behind the starting line if I turn around the front left corner. Tactical Moves, page 8, paragraph 5. We made a compromise to work within the spirit of the rule. The rule reads ‘The leading element moves forward…’ no mention of distance nor it being straight, just forward. Rather than turn to flank, the lead element wheels on a front corner followed by other elements to form column. |
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Post by medievalthomas on Aug 11, 2023 21:17:16 GMT
I’m the same Sonic. It doesn’t help that the recoiling passing through rules are on page 9. These would be much better on page 12, after (not before) combat. I don’t know if it helps, but I made a set of “Detailed Crib Sheets” here:- static.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/c/cf/DETAILED_CRIB_SHEETS_for_DBA_3.0.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20170104004718 These try where possible to present the rules in the order where they are needed. So instead of having Elephants recoiling from a gate mentioned on page 12, the fact that CP/Lit/CWg fight as Blades is mentioned under the Combat Factors instead of being hidden on page 4, Garrison Artillery (with a CF of 2) is in the Combat Factors instead of being hidden on page 7 under the BUA-City rules, and Mounted-Infantry are treated as Bowmen is shown on the page 11 Combat Outcomes Chart. I moved the Recoil rule in D3H2 and rules will be similarly reorganized in DBF. TomT |
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Post by Brian Ború on Sept 12, 2023 8:11:49 GMT
Clarification needed:
Concerning the 2nd or 3rd move of Ps and LH the rules state that this
may take place "only if this does not start or go within 1 BW of enemy".
So ambushes are not possible. But I may pin enemy units by touching
them with the far/front edge of my TZ/ZOC?
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Post by paulisper on Sept 12, 2023 8:29:08 GMT
Clarification needed: Concerning the 2nd or 3rd move of Ps and LH the rules state that this may take place "only if this does not start or go within 1 BW of enemy". So ambushes are not possible. But I may pin enemy units by touching them with the far/front edge of my TZ/ZOC? Nope, as you’d be within 1BW of enemy P |
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 12, 2023 8:33:08 GMT
Clarification needed: Concerning the 2nd or 3rd move of Ps and LH the rules state that this may take place "only if this does not start or go within 1 BW of enemy". So ambushes are not possible. But I may pin enemy units by touching them with the far/front edge of my TZ/ZOC? No, because '"Within" means "at or closer than"' (page 2). So you can't get close enough to put the enemy in your TZ on a second move. |
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Post by medievalthomas on Sept 20, 2023 18:17:09 GMT
Paulhannah is of course right. But don’t forget the hidden danger of LH columns when forced to flee. Interpenetration on page 9 says:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends…” …so fleeing LH cannot pass through other LH, only through Ps. And Fleeing on page 12 says:- “ (It is destroyed) if after turning it cannot move at all…” Therefore, avoid having LH at the front of a column if being shot at by Art, or when in Bad Going. Rear supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps, as they will be destroyed instead of fleeing anyway. The problem has been noted. Its screwy LH using essentially circle shooting can't dash away and makes the rear support tactic more dangerous to LH than their opponent. It will be fixed in DBF. But now in Blue Sky's mode: what if a Fleeing Element that contacts another friendly Element of equal or Lower CF triggered a Flee by that Element? rather than blocking the rout? TomT |
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Post by stevie on Sept 20, 2023 19:32:12 GMT
But now in Blue Sky's mode: what if a Fleeing Element that contacts another friendly Element of equal or Lower CF triggered a Flee by that Element? rather than blocking the rout? TomT , Tom, Tom…YES!  In fact, the existing HoTT 2.1 rules already have this provision. Fleeing, at bottom of page 25 of the existing softback edition, says:- “Friends (the fleeing troops) cannot pass through, under or over, nor avoid, are burst through, then flee behind it until it stops.” |
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Post by skb777 on Sept 21, 2023 8:17:57 GMT
Clarification needed: Concerning the 2nd or 3rd move of Ps and LH the rules state that this may take place "only if this does not start or go within 1 BW of enemy". So ambushes are not possible. But I may pin enemy units by touching them with the far/front edge of my TZ/ZOC? Surely if it’s an ambush you wouldn’t know they are there, that’s the whole point of an ambush. So surely there is no reason you can’t go with a BW? |
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Post by Simon on Sept 21, 2023 10:36:50 GMT
Paulhannah is of course right. But don’t forget the hidden danger of LH columns when forced to flee. Interpenetration on page 9 says:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends…” …so fleeing LH cannot pass through other LH, only through Ps. And Fleeing on page 12 says:- “ (It is destroyed) if after turning it cannot move at all…” Therefore, avoid having LH at the front of a column if being shot at by Art, or when in Bad Going. Rear supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps, as they will be destroyed instead of fleeing anyway. The problem has been noted. Its screwy LH using essentially circle shooting can't dash away and makes the rear support tactic more dangerous to LH than their opponent. It will be fixed in DBF. But now in Blue Sky's mode: what if a Fleeing Element that contacts another friendly Element of equal or Lower CF triggered a Flee by that Element? rather than blocking the rout? TomT I am not sure there is a problem to be fixed. In Phil's overview of LH he points out there is a risk in massing LH and the current rules simply replicate that. Simon |
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Post by skb777 on Sept 24, 2023 15:45:22 GMT
Ohh I have a question. Say you have a 2 deep Wb that keeps pursuing an element of Ax (because they are stupid and that's what they do) and it still has the Ax to it's front as well as 2 side contacts to the rear element (due to punching through the line. 2 more elements have no joined the Ax to offer side support, sooooo is this a -4 to the Wb due to 2 side edge contacts and 2 corner to corner or is there a max you can have?
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Post by martin on Sept 24, 2023 16:15:45 GMT
Ohh I have a question. Say you have a 2 deep Wb that keeps pursuing an element of Ax (because they are stupid and that's what they do) and it still has the Ax to it's front as well as 2 side contacts to the rear element (due to punching through the line. 2 more elements have no joined the Ax to offer side support, sooooo is this a -4 to the Wb due to 2 side edge contacts and 2 corner to corner or is there a max you can have? Max of -1 per side (=-2). Worst you can ever get is both side overlaps = -2, and rear contact as well, total -3. nb Edge to edge with the rearmost element of a supported Wb or Pk does NOT constitute an overlap...so pursuing as a two deep column will often remove edge to edge overlaps with the fron (fighting) element, and make the front Wb (or Pk) more likely to win its next fight. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Sept 24, 2023 16:32:23 GMT
Ohh I have a question. Say you have a 2 deep Wb that keeps pursuing an element of Ax (because they are stupid and that's what they do) and it still has the Ax to it's front as well as 2 side contacts to the rear element (due to punching through the line. 2 more elements have no joined the Ax to offer side support, sooooo is this a -4 to the Wb due to 2 side edge contacts and 2 corner to corner or is there a max you can have? Max of -1 per side (=-2). Worst you can ever get is both side overlaps = -2, and rear contact as well, total -3. nb Edge to edge with the rearmost element of a supported Wb or Pk does NOT constitute an overlap...so pursuing as a two deep column will often remove edge to edge overlaps with the fron (fighting) element, and make the front Wb (or Pk) more likely to win its next fight. That's very interesting! |
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Post by skb777 on Sept 24, 2023 16:35:49 GMT
I suspected there would a max you could get, I was just trying a few things out and that happened. And I thought ‘now what?’
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