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Post by stevie on Apr 12, 2023 8:43:48 GMT
Paulhannah is of course right. But don’t forget the hidden danger of LH columns when forced to flee.
Interpenetration on page 9 says:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends…” …so fleeing LH cannot pass through other LH, only through Ps. And Fleeing on page 12 says:- “(It is destroyed) if after turning it cannot move at all…”
Therefore, avoid having LH at the front of a column if being shot at by Art, or when in Bad Going. Rear supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps, as they will be destroyed instead of fleeing anyway.
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Post by Brian Ború on Apr 12, 2023 9:20:59 GMT
Paulhannah is of course right. But don’t forget the hidden danger of LH columns when forced to flee. Interpenetration on page 9 says:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends…” …so fleeing LH cannot pass through other LH, only through Ps. And Fleeing on page 12 says:- “ (It is destroyed) if after turning it cannot move at all…” Therefore, avoid having LH at the front of a column if being shot at by Art, or when in Bad Going. Rear supported LH columns are best used against mounted (except SCh), Bw, and Ps, as they will be destroyed instead of fleeing anyway. So this LH rear support is a double edged sword... Decisions, decisions...
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Post by Brian Ború on Apr 12, 2023 10:04:24 GMT
O.k. boys, that was really quick! Thanks! Now the next one, higher grade. Imagine a line of three LH attacking the last enemy unit of a straight battle line. But not frontal but obliquely, by let's say 45°. The LH end their move with the middle LH front edge contacting the one free front corner of the last unit. Their move distance is used up, no PIP's left. 1. Must this move be cancelled? 2. Must anyone conform? 3. If there is CC, what overlaps do count? 4. If there are move distances and PIP's left, what move is regular? ... eu eu eu LH LH LH x starting point
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Post by menacussecundus on Apr 12, 2023 10:37:20 GMT
1. Not a legal move. (Plus the lower LH enters the TZ of the enemy element being attacked and then moves through it into the TZ of the middle enemy element which isn't allowed either.)
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Post by stevie on Apr 12, 2023 12:06:25 GMT
As Menacussecundus says.
Moving Into Contact on page 9:- “A single element or group contacting a group conforms to that group.” “If this is not possible (due to a lack of movement), the move does not happen.” (see figure 10) (Note that only front-edges trigger conforming, not front-corners, see FAQ. And conforming does not force groups to split - see figures 13c and 13d).
However, if the LH group made legal contact with the flank of the enemy, then that enemy will turn-to-face, and be overlapped by the centre LH.
And if the centre LH of the group made legal contact with the flank of the enemy, then once that enemy had turned-to-face the centre LH it would find itself overlapped on both flanks by the two outer LH elements of the moving group.
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Post by Brian Ború on Apr 12, 2023 13:19:44 GMT
...tricky, indeed! But I see, threat zones are the key to the solution...
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 8, 2023 12:43:11 GMT
And another one: A column of a Hd and a warband on a road in the woods are attacked by two auxilia (green bases): What happens?
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 8, 2023 12:52:01 GMT
And now, when the warband is in front and the Hd behind, with Ax closing the door?
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 8, 2023 13:14:21 GMT
In the second picture, combat factors are 3 v 2 (Ax 3, Wb 3-1 for being overlapped). If Wb loses, it cannot recoil and both it and the Hd are destroyed.
In the first picture, I'm not sure the flanking Ax has made legal (i.e. front corner to front corner) contact. If it could contact the Hd's front corner, the factors would again be 3 v 2 (Ax 3, Hd 3-1 for being overlapped). If the Hd is destroyed, the Wb is too. However, if the result the Ax scores more than the Hd but doesn't double it, nothing happens. If the scores are equal or the Ax has to recoil, both Ax recoil and the Hd/Wb column pursues. If the Ax in front is destroyed, the one on the flank recoils and the Hd/Wb pursues 1BW along the road.
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Post by Les1964 on Jul 8, 2023 13:45:11 GMT
In the first picture, I'm not sure the flanking Ax has made legal (i.e. front corner to front corner) contact. The Ax has made a legal contact on the flank of the Wb .
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Post by stevie on Jul 8, 2023 15:20:41 GMT
In the second picture, combat factors are 3 v 2 (Ax 3, Wb 3-1 for being overlapped). If Wb loses, it cannot recoil and both it and the Hd are destroyed. In the first picture, I'm not sure the flanking Ax has made legal (i.e. front corner to front corner) contact. If it could contact the Hd's front corner, the factors would again be 3 v 2 (Ax 3, Hd 3-1 for being overlapped). If the Hd is destroyed, the Wb is too. However, if the result the Ax scores more than the Hd but doesn't double it, nothing happens. If the scores are equal or the Ax has to recoil, both Ax recoil and the Hd/Wb column pursues. If the Ax in front is destroyed, the one on the flank recoils and the Hd/Wb pursues 1BW along the road. I’m afraid that there are several errors in the above post. ① The very bottom of page 6 says “Combat is in the going (the Road) is passing through”. Therefore the combat factors should be 3 for the Ax and zero for the Hd (3 minus 3). (Hordes, even if they are ‘Fast’, don’t like fighting in bad going, and suffer the -2 penalty) ② “Pursuit” on page 12 says “…there is no pursuit in bad going (except in Marsh or Gully)”. So nobody is going to pursue if they are victorious…not even the Wb or Hd. Fortunately Les1964 escapes the ever watchful pedantic eye of old Stevie. Figures 20a, 20b, and 20c shows examples of this very situation.
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 8, 2023 15:30:56 GMT
In the first picture, I'm not sure the flanking Ax has made legal (i.e. front corner to front corner) contact. The Ax has made a legal contact on the flank of the Wb . Has it? Looks like front corner to rear corner to me. However, if it had contacted the flank of the Wb, the Wb would turn to face (and the Hd wouldn't suffer a -1 for being flanked).
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Post by menacussecundus on Jul 8, 2023 15:34:30 GMT
In the second picture, combat factors are 3 v 2 (Ax 3, Wb 3-1 for being overlapped). If Wb loses, it cannot recoil and both it and the Hd are destroyed. In the first picture, I'm not sure the flanking Ax has made legal (i.e. front corner to front corner) contact. If it could contact the Hd's front corner, the factors would again be 3 v 2 (Ax 3, Hd 3-1 for being overlapped). If the Hd is destroyed, the Wb is too. However, if the result the Ax scores more than the Hd but doesn't double it, nothing happens. If the scores are equal or the Ax has to recoil, both Ax recoil and the Hd/Wb column pursues. If the Ax in front is destroyed, the one on the flank recoils and the Hd/Wb pursues 1BW along the road. I’m afraid that there are several errors in the above post. ① The very bottom of page 6 says “Combat is in the going (the Road) is passing through”. Therefore the combat factors should be 3 for the Ax and zero for the Hd (3 minus 3). (Hordes, even if they are ‘Fast’, don’t like fighting in bad going, and suffer the -2 penalty) ② “Pursuit” on page 12 says “…there is no pursuit in bad going (except in Marsh or Gully)”. So nobody is going to pursue if they are victorious…not even the Wb or Hd. Fortunately Les1964 escapes the ever watchful pedantic eye of old Stevie. Figures 20a, 20b, and 20c shows examples of this very situation. I sit in corrected in the naughty corner. But as figs 20a-c don't cover the configuration shown in the first photo, perhaps you would like to come and join me, Stevie.
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Post by stevie on Jul 8, 2023 16:03:44 GMT
Ah…I’m having trouble telling which way the column is facing… Forgive me Brian, but the front 3 figures of the Horde seem to be fighting the rear 3 Horde figures!…going by the way that bloke on the right is swinging his axe… Then there is all the turning-to-face considerations to take into account. But Menacussecundus is right: legal contact is by front corners touching only. (Move over in the naughty corner to make room for me then…ha, ha, ha! )
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 8, 2023 16:20:40 GMT
In the first picture, I'm not sure the flanking Ax has made legal (i.e. front corner to front corner) contact. The Ax has made a legal contact on the flank of the Wb . Now, what about the Turning to face rule? I think the warband (as it doesn’t give rear support) turns to face the left Ax. But in order to make legal contact, the Hd and the Ax on the road are being pushed along the road, so that finally the Wb and the left Ax face each other, right?
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