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Post by diades on Oct 24, 2020 19:37:42 GMT
My apologies there is not a picture here.
Imagine a cavalry general behind a blade of his own army.
His front is in contact with the blade’s rear, but he is offset (slid sideways) by approx 1/4 base width.
The blade is in frontal contact and hence combat with an enemy blade.
The general’s flank on the side that “sticks out” beyond the blade is in mutual side to side contact with an enemy element, whose rear edge is aligned with the general’s front edge.
An enemy element in flank contact with its blade element that is in combat with the blade in front of the general, behind, but offset from, the enemy element on the general’s flank, moves forward and contacts the exposed front edge of the general.
Now, the contacting enemy element should conform to the general, but is unable to because the blades engaged with each other prevent this.
The general is unable to conform either, because of the enemy element on its flank mostly in front of the contacting enemy element, so will fight as if overlapped.
If the blade in front of the general’s combat is resolved first and the blade loses, but is not doubled, there appear to be two options.
1. The blade is unable to push back the general because the general is in combat and hence the blade is destroyed, or
2. The blade recoils and pushes the general back...out of combat and hence the general does not resolve the combat resulting from the enemy’s move.
What would you say is the outcome?
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 25, 2020 16:36:27 GMT
I don't see anything in the Recoiling section that says you can't push back friends, even if they are in combat. So of the two options I'd go for 2.
However, on page 9 it says moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat.
So maybe it's option 3, i.e. you have to fight the Cav combat first?
Of course if it was the other way around, the Cav would have been able to interpenetrate so wouldn't have force the Blades out of combat. Presumably the defending payer would have the choice in this instance?
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 25, 2020 18:05:45 GMT
Option 1.
The Cav General is in close combat. It must happen. The blade is destroyed.
Joe Collins
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Post by ronisan on Oct 25, 2020 21:31:06 GMT
Option 1.
An element (stuck) in a Close Combat can only break off by a (own) recoil or flee outcome move.
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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 27, 2020 16:56:06 GMT
I don't think an Element in Close Combat can be Pushed Back - so it blocks Recoil and the Blade is Destroyed.
Follow on question: not sure from description but would the destruction of the Blade now allow the Blade/General interaction to fully align? As is the Gen has to fight as if Overlapped because it cannot fully align. If a prior combat result allows an unaligned defender to now align - can they do so?
I'd answer yes.
TomT
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Post by Baldie on Oct 27, 2020 17:50:09 GMT
I always thought unaligned troops automatically aligned at the start of the next turn if they can.
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Post by diades on Oct 27, 2020 20:57:38 GMT
Hi All. Thanks. Opinion so far. We considered both options.
Can anyone point to evidence?
We ruled option 2 because we could not find anything that said an element in combat cannot be moved out of combat as a result of being pushed back...
Fortunately we had the debate before deciding the order. I chose to resolve the combat against the general first because we had ruled option 2.
The general was destroyed ( his rear was in a wood)!
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 27, 2020 22:43:09 GMT
I think the best evidence was stated by sheffmark, the first sentence under "MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY" on p9:
"The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat" (my underline).
PB doesn't use definite terms like "always" often. That he uses it here in this manner makes me think this principle supersedes other rules in case of a conflict. The General element must fight. If he clears space he can be pushed back. If the Blade element recoils before the combat, it will be destroyed in my opinion.
There is also this sentence under "TACTICAL MOVES" on p8:
"It (tactical move) cannot be used by an element in close combat, which can break-off only by recoil or flee outcome move." (my underline)
The General is not recoiling, he is being pushed back so he cannot break-off from combat. In my opinion "recoil" and "pushed back" are different outcome moves because PB titles the section dealing with these moves on p12 "RECOILING OR BEING PUSHED BACK".
That's the best evidence I can find. I hope it helps.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by diades on Oct 28, 2020 8:55:27 GMT
I think the best evidence was stated by sheffmark, the first sentence under "MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY" on p9: "The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat" (my underline). PB doesn't use definite terms like "always" often. That he uses it here in this manner makes me think this principle supersedes other rules in case of a conflict. The General element must fight. If he clears space he can be pushed back. If the Blade element recoils before the combat, it will be destroyed in my opinion. There is also this sentence under "TACTICAL MOVES" on p8: " It (tactical move) cannot be used by an element in close combat, which can break-off only by recoil or flee outcome move." (my underline) The General is not recoiling, he is being pushed back so he cannot break-off from combat. In my opinion "recoil" and "pushed back" are different outcome moves because PB titles the section dealing with these moves on p12 "RECOILING OR BEING PUSHED BACK". That's the best evidence I can find. I hope it helps. Cheers Jim Thank you Jim. Those were all we could find too. I guess it is all about interpretation. As stated above, we resolved the cavalry combat first. As it happened the cavalry was destroyed. The cavalry might have drawn, or even won, in which case it would have remained in place. It may have still been in frontal contact with enemy, but at least a round of combat would have taken place. If the blade was subsequently pushed back would it have been destroyed? Would it push the cavalry back if the cavalry had recoiled its opponent, but be destroyed if the cavalry was still in contact? |
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 28, 2020 9:15:35 GMT
If the cavalry is still in frontal contact at the end of combat then the blade would be destroyed. Otherwise, the cavalry could be pushed back.
Interestingly, much would depend on which player is choosing the order of combat.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 28, 2020 9:46:46 GMT
Good spot from Jim about the bit on page 8
Totally agree with his understanding of the situation and answer to diades question; if the Cav was still in contact because the combat was drawn then no it couldn't allow the Bd to recoil so the Bd would be destroyed. If the Cav had won, presumably the opponent would have recoiled but the Cav wouldn't follow up, so it would no longer be in combat, so it could be pushed back by the Bd.
If the Cav had lost it would be pushed back (or destroyed) and having a deeper base than the Bd would allow it room to be recoiled itself. So only on a draw would the Bd be destroyed if pushed back.
As jim says, an interesting situation and one where it would be quite important who's choosing the order of combats.
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 28, 2020 11:00:32 GMT
If the Gen had been a Bd, say, and had won the combat. What would have happened then? (Given that there isn't enough room for it to pursue.)
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 28, 2020 11:23:20 GMT
If the Gen had been a Bd, say, and had won the combat. What would have happened then? (Given that there isn't enough room for it to pursue.) I'm comfortable in saying that the rules don't cover this situation! My feeling is that pursuit doesn't occur as if the combat was in bad going (the blade did take a -1 for not confirming which in my mind represents limited space impairing manoeuvre). But that's just how I see it my mind's eye. Jim |
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Post by diades on Oct 28, 2020 12:40:48 GMT
There is also this sentence under "TACTICAL MOVES" on p8: " It (tactical move) cannot be used by an element in close combat, which can break-off only by recoil or flee outcome move." (my underline) The General is not recoiling, he is being pushed back so he cannot break-off from combat. In my opinion "recoil" and "pushed back" are different outcome moves because PB titles the section dealing with these moves on p12 "RECOILING OR BEING PUSHED BACK". That's the best evidence I can find. I hope it helps. Cheers Jim I think we are reaching a consensus... The counter is still that the cavalry element, if pushed back out of combat, would be doing so as a result of a recoil outcome move, albeit of another element, which is consistent with the quote from p8 above. |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 28, 2020 12:56:31 GMT
My apologies there is not a picture here. Imagine a cavalry general behind a blade of his own army. His front is in contact with the blade’s rear, but he is offset (slid sideways) by approx 1/4 base width. The blade is in frontal contact and hence combat with an enemy blade. The general’s flank on the side that “sticks out” beyond the blade is in mutual side to side contact with an enemy element, whose rear edge is aligned with the general’s front edge. An enemy element in flank contact with its blade element that is in combat with the blade in front of the general, behind, but offset from, the enemy element on the general’s flank, moves forward and contacts the exposed front edge of the general. Now, the contacting enemy element should conform to the general, but is unable to because the blades engaged with each other prevent this. The general is unable to conform either, because of the enemy element on its flank mostly in front of the contacting enemy element, so will fight as if overlapped. If the blade in front of the general’s combat is resolved first and the blade loses, but is not doubled, there appear to be two options. 1. The blade is unable to push back the general because the general is in combat and hence the blade is destroyed, or 2. The blade recoils and pushes the general back...out of combat and hence the general does not resolve the combat resulting from the enemy’s move. What would you say is the outcome? I have looked this over many times and can't wrap my head around what is really happening. I'd love to give my $.02. Can some one draw a picture or something so I am answering the correct situation? |
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