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Post by genoansteel on Oct 28, 2020 13:41:50 GMT
Here Tony, As I understand it.  |
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 28, 2020 15:43:32 GMT
If the Gen had been a Bd, say, and had won the combat. What would have happened then? (Given that there isn't enough room for it to pursue.) I'm comfortable in saying that the rules don't cover this situation! My feeling is that pursuit doesn't occur as if the combat was in bad going (the blade did take a -1 for not confirming which in my mind represents limited space impairing manoeuvre). But that's just how I see it my mind's eye. Jim Again agree with Jim. Blades can interpenetrate other Bd when they recoil but there's no mention of being allowed to do so. If they did, then presumably moving through the other Bd would take them into contact with that enemy element, but we've already established that they couldn't replace it because that combat hadn't yet taken place. Therefore no pursuit but they would have pushed the enemy off, so wouldn't be in contact, so could be pushed back. |
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Post by diades on Oct 28, 2020 18:42:56 GMT
XXXXXXXX
X ax. X
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
YYYYYYYYYX cv X
Y Bd1 YX Gen. X
YYYYYYYYYXXXXXXXX
YYYYYYYYXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Y Bd2 YX bdZ XX bdW X
YYYYYYYYXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Y Bd3 YY Bd4 Y
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
HERE IS AN ATTEMPT.
Blade2 has moved from the side to side contact with Blade3 to contact cavalry general.
Neither party can conform.
If bladeZ is recoiled by Blade3,
1. Is it destroyed because it is not able to push back the cavalry general in combat, or
2. Does it push cavalry general back as part of its recoil, so that cavalry general does not resolve its combat?
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Post by diades on Oct 28, 2020 18:50:04 GMT
Here Tony, As I understand it. This is also correct (other way up from my attempt). Element blue B has contacted red Cv and more elements not shown assure neither can conform. If red Blade is recoiled by blue A, what happens? 1. Red Blade pushes red Cv back as part of recoil ( meaning that if not already resolved, red Cv is pushed out of contact and does not resolve the combat resulting from blue B’s contact)? Or 2. Red Blade is destroyed ( because it may not push red Cv out of combat)? |
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Post by timurilank on Oct 28, 2020 19:12:16 GMT
Here Tony, As I understand it. This is also correct (other way up from my attempt). Element blue B has contacted red Cv and more elements not shown assure neither can conform. If red Blade is recoiled by blue A, what happens? 1. Red Blade pushes red Cv back as part of recoil ( meaning that if not already resolved, red Cv is pushed out of contact and does not resolve the combat resulting from blue B’s contact)? Or 2. Red Blade is destroyed ( because it may not push red Cv out of combat)? If this illustration is correct, then explain to me the sequence of how Blue B and C moved into this position? Did you expend two pips? or Did you make a group move? |
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Post by paulisper on Oct 28, 2020 22:08:31 GMT
Here Tony, As I understand it. This is also correct (other way up from my attempt). Element blue B has contacted red Cv and more elements not shown assure neither can conform. If red Blade is recoiled by blue A, what happens? 1. Red Blade pushes red Cv back as part of recoil ( meaning that if not already resolved, red Cv is pushed out of contact and does not resolve the combat resulting from blue B’s contact)? Or 2. Red Blade is destroyed ( because it may not push red Cv out of combat)? Red Bd is destroyed P |
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Post by diades on Oct 29, 2020 9:31:54 GMT
This is also correct (other way up from my attempt). Element blue B has contacted red Cv and more elements not shown assure neither can conform. If red Blade is recoiled by blue A, what happens? 1. Red Blade pushes red Cv back as part of recoil ( meaning that if not already resolved, red Cv is pushed out of contact and does not resolve the combat resulting from blue B’s contact)? Or 2. Red Blade is destroyed ( because it may not push red Cv out of combat)? If this illustration is correct, then explain to me the sequence of how Blue B and C moved into this position? Did you expend two pips? or Did you make a group move? Timurilank, this is a subset of the elements involved. Blue C was there before most others and is in combat with an element not shown. Red Cv was brought into that combat as overlap. Blue A and B and red Blade were in a separate combat, where red Blade was progressively pushed back to contact red Cavalry. The move that created the question was blue B moving straight forward to keep up with the combat it had been involved in and contacting red Cavalry. |
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Post by diades on Oct 29, 2020 9:34:48 GMT
This is also correct (other way up from my attempt). Element blue B has contacted red Cv and more elements not shown assure neither can conform. If red Blade is recoiled by blue A, what happens? 1. Red Blade pushes red Cv back as part of recoil ( meaning that if not already resolved, red Cv is pushed out of contact and does not resolve the combat resulting from blue B’s contact)? Or 2. Red Blade is destroyed ( because it may not push red Cv out of combat)? Red Bd is destroyed P ...because? That was my initial assumption, but the owner of said blade argued that nothing in the rules implies that an element may not be pushed back (the result of a combat outcome move) out of combat by a recoiler. |
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Post by timurilank on Oct 29, 2020 11:48:03 GMT
If this illustration is correct, then explain to me the sequence of how Blue B and C moved into this position? Did you expend two pips? or Did you make a group move? Timurilank, this is a subset of the elements involved. Blue C was there before most others and is in combat with an element not shown. Red Cv was brought into that combat as overlap. Blue A and B and red Blade were in a separate combat, where red Blade was progressively pushed back to contact red Cavalry. The move that created the question was blue B moving straight forward to keep up with the combat it had been involved in and contacting red Cavalry. Diades, Thank you for the reply. That now makes sense and it is unfortunate for Red that his Bd cannot interpenetrate or push back the Cv element (p.12 – Recoiling or Being Pushed Back, last paragraph). Those are hard lessons which I think we have all made. |
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Post by diades on Oct 29, 2020 14:00:43 GMT
Thank you for the reply. That now makes sense and it is unfortunate for Red that his Bd cannot interpenetrate or push back the Cv element (p.12 – Recoiling or Being Pushed Back, last paragraph). Those are hard lessons which I think we have all made. As it is shown, I was playing the blue army. My instinct/feel and preference was for you to be correct, to give me the chance of destroying the blade more easily. Fairness to my opponent, however, as per sheffmark’s initial reply, nothing states that an element may not be pushed back if in combat. Indeed an element may break from combat as a result of an outcome move and recoiling (albeit of another element) is an outcome move. The argument that says the cavalry combat must take place...well what if it had happened first and resulted in a stand, so the cavalry is still in contact? At the end of the day, at a tournament I would leave it to the organiser to decide for us. On the day, I gave my friendly opponent the benefit of the doubt and we agreed that the cavalry could be pushed back. As a result I chose to resolve the cavalry conflict first and was lucky enough to destroy it. |
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Post by timurilank on Oct 29, 2020 15:26:45 GMT
Thank you for the reply. That now makes sense and it is unfortunate for Red that his Bd cannot interpenetrate or push back the Cv element (p.12 – Recoiling or Being Pushed Back, last paragraph). Those are hard lessons which I think we have all made. As it is shown, I was playing the blue army. My instinct/feel and preference was for you to be correct, to give me the chance of destroying the blade more easily. Fairness to my opponent, however, as per sheffmark’s initial reply, nothing states that an element may not be pushed back if in combat. Indeed an element may break from combat as a result of an outcome move and recoiling (albeit of another element) is an outcome move. The argument that says the cavalry combat must take place...well what if it had happened first and resulted in a stand, so the cavalry is still in contact? At the end of the day, at a tournament I would leave it to the organiser to decide for us. On the day, I gave my friendly opponent the benefit of the doubt and we agreed that the cavalry could be pushed back. As a result I chose to resolve the cavalry conflict first and was lucky enough to destroy it. I think I just heard Fortuna chuckling from above. |
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Post by ronisan on Oct 29, 2020 21:29:29 GMT
@ diades: well, page 8 (TACTICAL MOVES), 2nd paragraph: „... an element in close combat, which can break-off only by a recoil or flee outcome move.“
Every element can only dice for its own outcome move. You cannot ‚transfer‘ an outcome move to e.g. a neighboring close combat to recoil the neighboring element out of its close combat!
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by diades on Oct 31, 2020 14:58:36 GMT
@ diades: well, page 8 (TACTICAL MOVES), 2nd paragraph: „... an element in close combat, which can break-off only by a recoil or flee outcome move.“ Every element can only dice for its own outcome move. You cannot ‚transfer‘ an outcome move to e.g. a neighboring close combat to recoil the neighboring element out of its close combat! Cheers, Ronald ...and yet an element behind a unit in combat, that takes no part in that combat, is affected by outcome moves, whether pushed back or pursuing... |
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 31, 2020 21:21:40 GMT
@ diades: well, page 8 (TACTICAL MOVES), 2nd paragraph: „... an element in close combat, which can break-off only by a recoil or flee outcome move.“ Every element can only dice for its own outcome move. You cannot ‚transfer‘ an outcome move to e.g. a neighboring close combat to recoil the neighboring element out of its close combat! Cheers, Ronald ...and yet an element behind a unit in combat, that takes no part in that combat, is affected by outcome moves, whether pushed back or pursuing... I think that may encapsulate it, diades. An element in close combat can recoil or flee, but it can't be pushed back. |
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Post by medievalthomas on Nov 10, 2020 17:10:26 GMT
Pertinent concepts:
The situation is created by Elements not being able to line up (apparently) not sure how this occurred but it illustrates the importance of interpreting the rules to facilitate lining up. I realize there is an option to not line up an fight Overlapped - I opposed the option and felt we just force line up without bothering with the complexities of a negative motivator and the the consequences of not lining up even with the negative incentive.
Would like to know more about why the Elements could not line up as this is the essence of the problem.
Can find no specific rule preventing Elements from being Pushed Back out of Combat though this was certainly the intent. Getting Phil with his mad scientist approach to rule writing to write a methodical rule often proved impossible. Rule quoted by Ronisan comes closest to address the problem.
I'll make sure this point is explicitly covered in D3H2 and more other stuff.
TomT
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