Moving into overlap with Psiloi

I think you are misquoting (d) stevie. It simply says "overlap" and then refers the reader to p10 for what an overlap means. It doesn't specify corner-to-corner.

I think too that you are over-thinking the position of the Sp in your example. If it wants to contact the Bw, it chooses option (a) and ends its move in full mutual front edge contact. There is nothing in the rules which says an element cannot end a move in front edge contact with one enemy element and side edge to side edge contact with another.

You are of course correct people.

Perhaps I have over analysed it...but I’m not the one saying you can’t move into
mutual side-edge to side-edge contact unless some other condition also applies.

Very well, let’s keep it simple.
There are four ways to end the move phase touching the enemy:-
         Three ways with your front-edge in contact (options a, b, and c),
         and the last way is to be in an overlap position (option d)...
...and all that guff about “with no enemy in contact to your front” is entirely meaningless,
and refers NOT to how you end the move phase, but whether you can apply the overlap penalty.
(In other words, it’s a combat effect requirement, NOT a movement positioning instruction)

Hmmm...I think it’s actually both Haywire.

Page 9 “Contacting The Enemy” says you can only end a move phase touching the enemy if:-
        * your front-edge is in contact (options a, b, and c)
        * or in an overlap position (option d).
...and there are two types of overlap position:-

        Wd Bd       Here the Ps is in a corner-to-corner overlap,
   Ps                  while the Bd is in a mutual side-edge to side-edge overlap.

Of course, as nobody is fighting the front of the Wb, both these overlaps have no effect.
Nonetheless, they are overlaps, therefore legitimate contacts at the end of the move phase.
Now compare the above diagram with the following:-

              Bow     The Ps is no longer overlapping the Wb, because it is in front-edge contact.
   Ax Wd Bd       But the Bd is still in a mutual side-edge to side-edge overlap with the Wb,
   Ps  Sp             and it too will be mutually side-edged overlapped itself as it fights the Bow.
                          

I’m only going by Figure 16a Ronisan, which says:-
    “Although Bow Y can shoot at Warband A, there is no close combat between
     any of these elements because no element is in both front-edge and front
     corner-to-corner contact with the enemy.”
Note that it says “no close combat”...it does not say “these contacts are illegal”.

Now you could say these are examples of legal contacts that do not result in combat...
...but I prefer to call them legal overlaps that do not result in combat.
(“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...” )

I think this is clearer and more precise, as some corner-to-corner contacts are not legal.
Take figure 13d for example, and imagine Spear A were on its own and not part of a group,
or take figure 11 and imagine that the centre Wb and Ax corners were touching each other.
       Is its front-edge in contact?...no, so it doesn't fulfil options a, b, or c.
       Is it in an overlap position?...no, corner-to-corner overlaps require like corners touching
       (i.e. left to left or right to right)
Therefore it cannot end a move phase in such a position. Someone needs to conform.


For what it’s worth, here is a list of all the times the word ‘overlap’ is mentioned in the rules:-

Overlaps:-                              Page  Paragraph
    Moving into contact                 9           9          (see figures 16a, 16b, and 16c)
    If conforming is blocked           9         10          (see figures 13a to 13e)
    Overlapping a WWg               10           1          (see figure 7e)
    A shooting target                   10           3          (see figure 15c)
    Combat when overlapped        10          7          (see figure 16b)
    Mutual side-edge overlaps       10          8          (see figure 16b)
    No overlap on Ps or SCh          10          8          (see figure 16c)
    Only 1 overlap per flank          10          8          (see figure 16b)
    Phantom overlaps                   10          8          (see figure 17)
    City/Fort/Camp assaults          10          9
    Combat tactical factors            11          3

(The above was taken from my "Detailed Rules Index", which can be found here:-
vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/c/c8/DETAILED_RULES_INDEX_FOR_DBA_3.0.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20190304111629 )

Page 10, “Combat When Overlapping”, 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence, clearly says:-
   “Any enemies in any mutual flank edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.”
Now the next question: in figure 16a, how did Bow Y and Cavalry A end up in mutual edge contact?
Neither of these element pursue...so how did they get into such as position?
Voluntarily during a tactical move perhaps?

Finally, let’s look at ending a move phase touching the enemy.
Page 9, “Moving Into Contact”, 1st paragraph, option ‘d’ says:-
     “(d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap (see page 10).”

Neither here, nor on page 10, nor anywhere else in the rules, does it say:-
“You cannot move into a corner-to-corner or a mutual side-edge contact
unless the enemy is already being engaged frontally first.”

All page 9 says is at the end of the move phase you must be either:-
                     in frontal contact (options a, b, or c),
                                       ---OR---
                     in an overlap position (option d).

Remember, page 10 “Close Combat” is giving us combat effect requirements,
NOT legal movement positioning instructions.
In other words, page 9 tells us how to move, and page 10 tells us how to fight.
Not the other way round.

Still, if you object to my use of the word ‘overlapping’, let’s use a different phrase instead.
Call it ‘outflanking the enemy’...
Call it ‘potentially lapping around an enemy’s undefended side-edge’...
Call it ‘extending your front beyond an enemy’s open flank’...
Call it ‘ending the move phase in proper legal contact’...
Call it whatever you like...
...there is still nowhere in the rules that says “You cannot move into a corner-to-corner
or a mutual side-edge contact unless the enemy is already being engaged frontally first.”

It must be my bound again.

Yep...you’re dead right.
The title is COMBAT as you point out, not CONTACTING THE ENEMY!

But I’m talking about CONTACTING THE ENEMY, as described on page 9, not COMBAT on page 10.
After all, you can’t have combat until you’ve moved into contact (unless you are shooting).
Contacting comes first...combat only happens after movement and contact has been completed.


Yet again, this is not what page 10 says:-
  “Any enemies in any mutual flank edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.”
And you can be in contact without being in combat, as shown in figure 16a.

Leaving aside the word ‘overlap’, I’ve searched “Tactical Moves” on page 8, I’ve searched “Contacting
The Enemy” on page 9, and I’ve searched “Close Combat” on page 10...
...yet I still can’t find where it says “You cannot move into a corner-to-corner or a mutual side-edge
contact unless the enemy is currently being engaged frontally.”

Take this example:-

             Bow
                            Here the red Blades, who have little to fear from Bows,
        Sp   ↑   Sp     wants to contact them (or at least pin them with a TZ),
               ↑             but they are currently 3 BW away.
             Bd

Are you telling me that the Blades cannot move closer to the Bows by at least moving into side-edge
contact with the Spear, nor even move into corner-to-corner contact with the Spear, so they can never
reach the Bows?

Hi Stevie, referring to your example blue Bw + 2Sp and red Bd: if the Bd where fast, they could reach the Bw front edge to front edge, causing a close combat with -2 because of being overlapped on both side edges by the Sp-elements (legal contact at the end of the movement phase). If the Bd where solid their 2BW movement won‘t be enough to engage the Bw into close combat. A 90 degree turn to contact one of the Sps their flank/side edge will probably not possible because of the TZ of the Bw! The Bd could contact one of the Sps front edge to front edge (legal contact). What the Bd could not do is, stopping between the two Sp-elements... sitting there ... hanging around totally unaffected! Cheers, Ronald