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Post by plevv on Sept 1, 2020 10:13:12 GMT
An element has moved into frontal contact with an enemy Psiloi.
There is another friendly element say, half a move to the right and behind this contact that could be moved to contact the right flank of the enemy Psiloi
But a move into full contact with this flank would not be legal because it would involve pivoting through an enemy TZ as per figure 7c.
The player notices he could do the next best thing by moving the same element straight into a corner-to-corner overlap position like Blade C in figure 9a
Normally this would be the option taken since it creates a group with the attacking element that may be convenient after the combat.
But since the enemy element is Psiloi, the player will not get an overlap benefit since the overlap rule on P12 expressly excludes overlaps on Psiloi when such a corner-to-corner overlap occurs. So this does not work for him.
However, the next sentence in the overlap rule says that ANY elements in mutual side-edge contact are treated as being in mutual overlap. The player realises that he can do a standard move (avoiding the enemy TZ) so that the side edge of his element ends in contact with the attacking element, but instead of having its left corner in contact with that element, it has the overlapping element end its move forward of the attacking element's front by a couple of millimetres so that the Psiloi and the overlapping element are in mutual side edge contact instead. The combat can thus gain the benefit of an overlap.
The argument for this being a legal move is that it satisfies the requirement that - at the end of the bound's movement phase the moving element has ended in an overlap position as defined on P12. And mutual side contact is an overlap.
It looks like cheese to me in that it is a way of evading the idea of Psiloi (and Scythed Chariots) not being vulnerable to overlap because they are not in rigid formations or are moving too quickly, whatever. It also means that an element of say, Blades, could overlap an element of Elephants by moving directly into side edge contact with the last 20mm of the elements base and have no contact with the friendly element contacting the Elephant's front. Does that seem right?
However, while there is nothing in the rule that I can find that expressly forbids it, it does not seem to be envisaged as a valid movement into overlap either. The mutual side edge contact rule being there to cover the result of another combat being entered into or as a result of some outcome of another combat. The only thing I can think of to forbid it is an interpretation of the diagrams which do not show a move into contact in such a way.
Views?
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Post by ronisan on Sept 1, 2020 10:42:12 GMT
Hello plevv, your intended move sounds legal to me. You try to get an advantage in overlapping the Psiloi ... at the cost of not building a group with your element fighting the close combat!đ cheers, Ronald
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Post by stevie on Sept 1, 2020 11:34:31 GMT
Welcome to Fanaticus Plevv.  Ronisan is quite right...itâs exactly what the rules say. I like to think of this as the skirmishers donât like to stand toe-to-toe with their adversaries (especially if they are slingers or archers without shields), but prefer to use their missiles by lobbing them from a distance, even when they are in what DBA calls âclose combatâ. This can best be envisioned by having the skirmishers glued to the far rear of their base. Then you can see that a corner-to-corner overlap wouldnât affect them...but a mutual side-edge to side-edge would cause the enemy to be closer, causing some men on the flanks to be in contact, leading to friction and distraction, thus justifying the -1 penalty. Scythed Chariots, as you say, probably move too quickly to be affected by corner-to-corner overlaps, and all those nasty blades sticking out of the wheel hubs is a good deterrent to discourage overlapping! (mutual side-edge contact against SCh could be considered a -1 penalty because those nasty blades have passed by, and some of the opponents on the flanks of the enemy formation can get behind them to harass the rear of the chariots). Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2020 FAQ: ancientwargaming.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/dba_faq_q1_2020_final.pdf
A "404 Error Message" means you are using a mobile device. The Fanticus Wiki can only be accessed via a computer. |
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Post by martin on Sept 1, 2020 14:13:17 GMT
Yep, allowed and frequently done.
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Post by plevv on Sept 1, 2020 15:57:09 GMT
Thanks to all. Will accept that as the way to play it.
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Post by medievalthomas on Sept 9, 2020 21:02:30 GMT
Side to side overlaps (Friction Overlaps) are not quite the same as corner Overlaps and do count even against Ps etc. There is not requirement that the supporting "overlapping" element remain in contact with the frontal attacker. Its quite common that they are not in contact. Likewise a Friction Overlap still counts even if the Overlapper is itself in frontal contact with a foe unlike a corner Overlapper.
From a game play aspect Friction Overlaps tend to be more difficult to achieve as they can't be done as a Group move with front attacking element. In addition a Friction Overlap is mutual (both elements are Overlapped if in combat).
Whether we really needed this micro distinction regarding free flowing Ps or quick striking Scythed Chariots is another question.
TomT
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Post by haywire on Sept 10, 2020 17:57:13 GMT
This doesn't sound legal to me.
If the moving element is going to contact the Ps it must be in corner-to-corner contact.
It can either close the door or overlap, but cannot just slide forward into side-to-side contact.
It can however end up in a non-corner-to-corner flank position as an outcome of combat (recoil, pursuit), or if the moving element is going into contact with another enemy element and ends up in a position giving side-to-side contact.
Page 10, Moving into Contact with Enemy, para 1, sentence 2.
In Thomas's language, we never allow you to voluntarily move into a friction overlap unless you are moving into contact with another enemy element at the same time.
And this all makes sense to me. If you are in a line and your mates are in combat but not you, you either stand where you are, or pivot into their flank. You would not advance to expose your own flank, unless you were also engaging another enemy to your front.
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 10, 2020 19:56:45 GMT
This doesn't sound legal to me. If the moving element is going to contact the Ps it must be in corner-to-corner contact. It can either close the door or overlap, but cannot just slide forward into side-to-side contact. It can however end up in a non-corner-to-corner flank position as an outcome of combat (recoil, pursuit), or if the moving element is going into contact with another enemy element and ends up in a position giving side-to-side contact. Page 10, Moving into Contact with Enemy, para 1, sentence 2. In Thomas's language, we never allow you to voluntarily move into a friction overlap unless you are moving into contact with another enemy element at the same time. And this all makes sense to me. If you are in a line and your mates are in combat but not you, you either stand where you are, or pivot into their flank. You would not advance to expose your own flank, unless you were also engaging another enemy to your front. I believe it is entirely legal, haywire. (d) of the first paragraph in the section headed MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY on page 9 says the contacting element can end its move "with no enemy to its front but in overlap (see p 10)" and p 10 defines an overlap as either mutual right to right or left to left front corner contact OR mutual flank edge contact. |
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Post by haywire on Sept 12, 2020 10:01:39 GMT
You have now convinced me it is legal. Thanks to all for the clarifications.
I understand that it is however illegal to move into side-to-side contact with an enemy unless you are supporting a friendly element in frontal combat.
So, if there are two isolated opposing elements, one cannot move into a side-to-side contact with the other.
This seems sensible, but I cannot find the section of the rules that forbids it.
Can anybody point me to the relevant part?
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Post by ronisan on Sept 12, 2020 11:46:51 GMT
Hello haywire, your intended contact is not allowed. Take a look at page 9 MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY. Your move wouldnât fit into category a), nor b), nor c)! See also Fig. 9a, Blade A, B and D. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by jim1973 on Sept 12, 2020 12:52:30 GMT
I'm not so sure. Page 9 states "...(d) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap (see p.10)". It doesn't differentiate corner to corner or side to side overlap. Page 10 states "Any enemies in any mutual flank edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not."
So I think it is a legal to move into side to side contact without any limitation.
Just my reading of the rules.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 12, 2020 14:11:12 GMT
Hello haywire, your intended contact is not allowed. Take a look at page 9 MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY. Your move wouldnât fit into category a), nor b), nor c)! See also Fig. 9a, Blade A, B and D. Cheers, Ronald Not (a), nor (b), nor (c). But (d), and so allowed. |
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Post by ronisan on Sept 12, 2020 16:46:49 GMT
Hello Jim, well - it is allowed to move your element in side edge to side edge overlap only if the enemy element is already in Close combat with another of your elements (thatâs (d)). But you are not allowed to contact an enemy elements side edge with your elements side edge, if the enemy element is not in frontal close combat with another of your elements! In this case, you can only contact the enemy element with the front edge of your element! Cheers, Ronald
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Post by stevie on Sept 12, 2020 17:21:53 GMT
I agree with both Jim and Menacussecundus (I usually do.  ) There are two distinct types of âoverlapâ:- * corner-to-corner overlap, and * mutual side-edge to side-edge overlap. Page 9 âContacting The Enemyâ, option d) says:- âd) with no enemy in contact to its front, but in overlap.â Note that it does not distinguish between which type of overlap...it just says in an overlap position. What does âwith no enemy in contact to its frontâ mean in this context? I can best describe this with the following diagram:- Bow
Ax Bd
Sp Wb PsIs the Wb overlapping the Ax?...no, itâs corner-to-corner but in frontal contact with the enemy. Likewise the Sp is corner-to-corner with the Bd, but it too is in frontal contact with the enemy. However, the Ps, also corner-to-corner with the Bd, is not in contact to its front, so overlaps. Lastly of course page 10 âClose Combat When Overlappingâ says:- âAny enemies in any mutual flank edge contact overlap each other whether in close combat or not.â So if the Ps moves forward to frontally contact the Bow, it will still overlap the Bd. If the Bow werenât there, the Ps would not be in frontal contact, but it still overlaps the Bd. And if the Bow werenât there, the Ps move would still be legal, as it is fulfilling the requirements of both page 9 option d) (ending the move phase in contact in an overlap position) and page 10 (in side-edge contact, whether its front-edge is in contact or not). Were it otherwise, it would mean that troops who don't pursue, or those that don't have enough movement to frontally contact an enemy, could never advance after destroying their opponents or causing them to flee... ...and that goes against simple common sense. |
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Post by martin on Sept 12, 2020 19:26:17 GMT
Hello Jim, well - it is allowed to move your element in side edge to side edge overlap only if the enemy element is already in Close combat with another of your elements (thatâs (d)). But you are not allowed to contact an enemy elements side edge with your elements side edge, if the enemy element is not in frontal close combat with another of your elements! In this case, you can only contact the enemy element with the front edge of your element! Cheers, Ronald (NB - I donât have the rules to hand, but) my memory suggests youâre talking about the v2.2 rule. The ability to go edge to edge without frontal contact was a change that jumped to my attention when v3 arrived. |
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