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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 3, 2020 3:07:10 GMT
Yep...against some troop types...
Front rank... Spear Spear Spear Back rank Spear Psiloi Spear and variations of that. Joe Collins
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Post by greedo on Oct 3, 2020 3:32:28 GMT
Yep...against some troop types...
Front rank... Spear Spear Spear Back rank Spear Psiloi Spear and variations of that. Joe Collins Ah IC, the Ps can support all 3 front Sp, and then each side Sp rear supports the two side Ps. Interesting.... and weird looking!
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 3, 2020 3:57:46 GMT
Yes. But I am working on some ACW rules where artillery could support 3 infantry elements but forsake distant bombardment.
Jim
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Post by stevie on Oct 3, 2020 8:07:06 GMT
Another quick question: what is the “Death Star” formation? . Double deep spear with Psiloi in the rear. Joe Collins Sounds like a painful and rather unpleasant sexual position to me Joe.
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Post by greedo on Oct 4, 2020 2:39:41 GMT
Quick question about rear support. Especially Ps that is supported. What does it do when it flees? Does it interpenetrate and then flee?
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Post by stevie on Oct 4, 2020 8:13:07 GMT
The fleeing process should be unchanged Greedo.
The Fleeing rules on page 12 paragraph 6 says:- “A fleeing element turns 180° degrees in place (unless shot at least partly on its rear edge – see the FAQ), and then moves straight forward without turning for its full tactical move distance for the going it starts in.”
And the Interpenetration rules on page 9 paragraph 5 says:- “If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends...”
This does mean that rear-supported LH can’t flee, as the LH behind them get in the way. But rear-supported Ps, who only flee from enemy foot or if in rough/bad going, are fast and nimble enough to still get away from most slow moving enemies.
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Post by greedo on Oct 4, 2020 18:43:05 GMT
This makes sense. Thanks Stevie!
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Post by greedo on Oct 23, 2020 3:08:03 GMT
After reading Ancient Battle Formations some more, where he explicitly says that light troops and Peltasts don't benefit from depth in combat, I started thinking about this even more...
And then I struck on this: "Solid troops can all rear support and be rear supported by other rear supported troops in good terrain. Fast troops cannot rear support or be rear supported".
Pikes are still the exception as before. This could be a way to further differentiate fast from solid troops, since they are in effect different troop types anyway, and so should behave differently. There is another thread going on right now about when to choose fast vs solid. This would really make this a tougher choice. I would keep the lose on ties for fast, but that last point is debatable.
Ps, 3Ax, 5Hd, 3Bw, and 3Bd are fast, so no rear support. Fast troops get to move fast even through rough terrain, but don't have the mass to benefit from deep formations. Fast troops still lose on ties against solids. In addition, fast troops ALL get to recoil their base depth or 1 BW, their choice, representing their fleet of foot.
But 4Ax, 4Bw, 4Bd, 4Sp, & 7Hd can all rear support and be rear supported. They are intended to be dense troops who benefit from mass both for morale as well as combat purposes. They get the +1 at the expense of not moving as fast, are slowed down by rough terrain, and have to double up to get it. 4Pk get +2 with rear support but only from other 4Pk.
3Wb, and 3Pk are strange ones. I'm almost inclined to not allow them to rear support since they are supposed to be fast anyway, and represent different troop types. 3Wb still get the Quick Kill, but this might weaken 3Pk too much. Open to arguing this one. Maybe 3Pk get +1 from other 3Pk instead of the +2? A bit complex...
At the very least, this would differentiate Skirmishers (Ps) from Peltasts (3Ax) from Auxiliaries (4Ax) from Samurai (3Bd) from Legionaries (4Bd) from Shield Walls (4Sp) from Japanese Ashigaru (3Pk) from Pikemen (4Pk). I could debate 3/4Bw, 5/7Hd, 3/4Wb, and 3/4Pk, but I felt that having a bit of a broad brush rule for fast troops would be easier to remember.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 3:50:52 GMT
Liking that a lot Greedo. I was thinking along similar lines. Note: 4Ax and all Wb are already not slowed down by rough terrain. And as Wb already get rear support, I'm guessing that's why it wasn't included above. Perhaps all Wb should still get rear support as in RAW? Not just 4Wb? This definitely provides a reason for choosing solid over fast.
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Post by greedo on Oct 23, 2020 4:18:36 GMT
Fair enough Snowcat. 4Wb and 4Bw and 4Ax don’t get slowed down by rough but they still move slower in their normal move, at least there’s that and they wouldn’t get the -1 for being in rough, but they wouldn’t be able to rear support whilst in the rough.. so it could balance out.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 4:27:35 GMT
What do you think about 3Wb? I like the demarcation between solid (rear support) vs fast (no rear support, but other cool stuff)...but 3Wb seems like an exception, along with 3Pk as you've outlined earlier.
Or maybe not. Ancient Chinese 3Pk for instance, would be better represented without rear support, as the standard formation was usually 5 deep.
Perhaps it is possible for a clear demarcation?
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Post by greedo on Oct 23, 2020 5:37:52 GMT
Good points SnowCat. Again, if you're just dialing in, this all assumes the other house rule, -1 for heavies (Sp, Bd). 3Pk:An INSANE idea: 4Pk now has a CV of 4, and with rear support of only +2. 3Pk has a CV of 4, but CANNOT get rear support. So 3Pk is a little better than it otherwise would be on it's own, against single rank heavies, BUT when it doubles up, it's back to CV6, so a slightly better 4Pk, hopefully fixing the problem you have with Pk against Sp, in the other thread . This would still allow 4Sp to get side and rear support. I've always thought of 3Pk as Japanese Ashigaru which weren't known for deep formations, but guessing Chinese 3Pk is similar? I have little experience with Pk, so I'll need some help/suggestions with this one. 3Wb:I would actually leave as is. No rear support. CV3. Quick kill against heavies. It still has quick kill, is good in rough, can move swiftly through woods, and can now break off with the 1BW recoil. It's not *quite* as good as it was, but hopefully since Wb were made more powerful with the -1CV to heavies, this will balance out. There was originally an idea to not allow Wb to double up when heavies were -1 since it would now be easier to kill them. I wouldn't put 3Wb against 4Bds or 4Sp unless you were desperate, and there's still an off chance that a beat causes quick kill, but I think that's as it should be. Send the 4Wb against 4Bd and 4Sp. Keep those 3Wb in the woods, ready to spring out. This will ensure that Fast troops and Solid troops are clearly defined, and avoids few exceptions (4Pk only). So it should be easy to remember.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 5:49:32 GMT
OK, I'm liking 3Wb without rear support. Sold. 3Pk also without rear support is fine. Sold. Need to think more about the CF4 for all Pk...
Chinese 'Pk' were originally designed as anti-chariot weapons; these shortened as cavalry superseded chariots. Chinese units were based on 5-deep systems as the norm. Not sure how Korean 'Pk' worked, or the size of their units. Anyone? They have both 4Pk and 3Pk in their armies.
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Post by greedo on Oct 23, 2020 6:13:42 GMT
ok ok CV4 is too crazy, I admit it What about CV3 for Pk: 4Pk get +3 for rear support from other 4Pk (CV6). 3Pk get +1 for rear support from other 3Pk (CV4). It's an exception, and I hate exceptions, but it's not a bad one given that Pikes are supposed to fight deep...
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 6:33:08 GMT
The best thing might be to find some troops classed as 3Pk who historically fought significantly deeper than 8 ranks. If there aren't any, then no rear support for 3Pk and we go from there?
On a similar note, did 4Bw ever fight significantly deeper than 8 ranks? It's a bit unlikely isn't it?
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