Post by shrimplyamazing on Aug 18, 2020 13:56:32 GMT
Hi all,
Edit: Through 10 pages of Discussion the 'Universal Rear Support' House rule is as follows (Special thanks to Greedo, Snowcat, Stevie and many others! also: see bottom of of this post for the original post):
What it is:
- Giving rear support bonuses to foot to encourage fighting in depth as an option
- Reducing Spear and Blade combat factors against foot (as well as reduce Pike rear support bonus in a similar fashion)
Why it is:
- Helping Solid Auxilia: there has been a decent amount of complaint about the use of solid Auxilia in the game at present, it doesn't really have any unique abilities and can't really stand up to heavier infantry in a fight at all when historically the fight was much more even (Say, Samnite Aux vs Romans Bd). Some suggested reducing the combat factors of heavy infantry so that Bd vs Aux would be a 4 to 3 instead of a 5 to 3, but this would mean more unpredictable results overall and possibly faster games due to the increased ability to double. giving rear support bonuses to all troops keeps the numbers higher whilst still bolstering Auxilia against the heavier infantry formations.
- What ever happened to fighting in depth?: many historical battles have armies fighting in multiple lines, DBA for the most part seems to create long single battle lines as there is no incentive to go deep. if you went deep then half your troops wouldn't even be used before the four elements were lost and the game was over. adding universal rear support for foot allows multiple lines to deploy and gives that back line a role even if they're not directly fighting. it might be a little abstract, but it allows for games where the formations feel a bit more realistic. You can think of it like the front troops recieving an extra morale boost from having friendly men supporting them, or allowing them to fight harder knowing that there are men behind to replace them when they tire, or for lighter troops possibly supporting with missile weapons and so forth. the main point is that generally having troops behind you is a good thing! either way, it allows for more interesting possibilities for formations (plus, the board isn't wide enough to fit all your heavy infantry in one long line in the deployment area so this would help that too!)
generally it can also allow for more historical scenarios to actually be realised (See Stevie's many posts in the thread for numerous examples that would be simulated by this house rule!)
What are the actual rule changes?
these modifications to rear support factors would make the rear support section read as follows:
this would be coupled with the reduced factor of 4 3 for Blade and 3 4 for Spear. as well as a modification to the Tactical factors:
The reduced bad going factor means that Blade and Spear would still fight in bad going at the same strength they previously were (seeing as you can't rear support in bad going!)
These adjustments would bring the Blade Foot factor in line with their 'when shot at' factor, so causes no issues for shooting however, Spear would be reduced when shot at. to counter this, one can modify the Flank support factors to allow spear to recieve side support when shot at (representing the benefit of shield wall tactics perhaps?). Flank support factors would now read as follows:
The big questions:
Will this make Warband too strong? the reduced factors does make it a little easier for warband to get a quick kill, yes. but whether that degree impacts the game too much such that they are overpowered is debatable. overall i think the consensus is that it is probably fine, but play-testing would work this out, there are always ways of fixing this by adjusting the way warband work, but for now we will leave that to future debate.
Pikes +2 and only supported by Pikes? We wanted to retain the importance of the double-ranked Pike, and the +2 matches the pikes with the reduced Spear and Blade scores, however we wanted to avoid the use of other rear support troops to replace the rear pike support (basically doubling the width of a pike block), plus it doesn't really feel like a Pike block without that depth, so having Pikes get the +2 but only through support by other Pikes seems fair. some have argued for a +1 rear support from other foot for Pike, for very specific examples (something about the Swiss?) but we have left it out for the general house rule. feel free to continue to debate at your leisure
Psiloi Yes this will make Psiloi stronger as they can now receive rear support. it will give the puny Psiloi armies a bit more of a chance and bring them more in line with their horse-bound companions, the Light Horse who already recieve a +1 from rear support. Psiloi can also now have a role behind lines supporting troops once they flee from the front line.
Supporting Like for Like vs Anyone can rear support: Obviously theres already the exception with Pike of requiring a Pike for rear support, however there were many examples of historical situations in which one troop was supporting in a second line a completely different troop class. the amount of examples found meant that it felt better to go with a broader universal rear support system than the restrictions of the like for like system. of course some combinations may be stronger/weaker than others, and further play testing might suggest that some combinations dont feel right, but for now it doesn't seem like it will be overpowered.
Are rear support elements destroyed when the front element is destroyed? No, same as usual DBA 3.0. so keep in mind when deploying weak units in rear support that if the first unit dies, they will have to face whatever is coming their way!
Does Side Support still count? Yep! Side support remains, so spear still need a solid shield wall in order to perform at the same level as Blades. Additionally, side support allow spears to retain their full strength when shot at.
I'm sure there are many other points I'm missing that lead to the overall house rule. You're welcome to peruse the thread to get a better idea of why specific elements were decided. The house rule might not be more for everyone. it definitely as a more ancient than medieval period inspiration to it (I mostly play Punic Wars) so that is another factor to keep in mind!
Edit: Through 10 pages of Discussion the 'Universal Rear Support' House rule is as follows (Special thanks to Greedo, Snowcat, Stevie and many others! also: see bottom of of this post for the original post):
What it is:
- Giving rear support bonuses to foot to encourage fighting in depth as an option
- Reducing Spear and Blade combat factors against foot (as well as reduce Pike rear support bonus in a similar fashion)
Why it is:
- Helping Solid Auxilia: there has been a decent amount of complaint about the use of solid Auxilia in the game at present, it doesn't really have any unique abilities and can't really stand up to heavier infantry in a fight at all when historically the fight was much more even (Say, Samnite Aux vs Romans Bd). Some suggested reducing the combat factors of heavy infantry so that Bd vs Aux would be a 4 to 3 instead of a 5 to 3, but this would mean more unpredictable results overall and possibly faster games due to the increased ability to double. giving rear support bonuses to all troops keeps the numbers higher whilst still bolstering Auxilia against the heavier infantry formations.
- What ever happened to fighting in depth?: many historical battles have armies fighting in multiple lines, DBA for the most part seems to create long single battle lines as there is no incentive to go deep. if you went deep then half your troops wouldn't even be used before the four elements were lost and the game was over. adding universal rear support for foot allows multiple lines to deploy and gives that back line a role even if they're not directly fighting. it might be a little abstract, but it allows for games where the formations feel a bit more realistic. You can think of it like the front troops recieving an extra morale boost from having friendly men supporting them, or allowing them to fight harder knowing that there are men behind to replace them when they tire, or for lighter troops possibly supporting with missile weapons and so forth. the main point is that generally having troops behind you is a good thing! either way, it allows for more interesting possibilities for formations (plus, the board isn't wide enough to fit all your heavy infantry in one long line in the deployment area so this would help that too!)
generally it can also allow for more historical scenarios to actually be realised (See Stevie's many posts in the thread for numerous examples that would be simulated by this house rule!)
What are the actual rule changes?
these modifications to rear support factors would make the rear support section read as follows:
Rear support factors:
These apply when elements have another friendly element lined-up directly behind them and facing the same direction, and both are in good going.
Pikes add +2 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot other than Psiloi and supported by other Pikes
Pikes add +1 when in frontal close combat against Knights, Elephants or Scythed Chariots and supported by other Pikes
Light Horse add +1 when in frontal close combat against any troops and supported by other Light Horse
Any foot, except Pikes or Double elements, add +1 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot other than Psiloi and supported by other foot except Pikes.
Double elements (6Kn, 8Sp, 6Bd, 8Bw) not in a city, fort or camp add +1 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot and the double element is entirely in good going.
These apply when elements have another friendly element lined-up directly behind them and facing the same direction, and both are in good going.
Pikes add +2 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot other than Psiloi and supported by other Pikes
Pikes add +1 when in frontal close combat against Knights, Elephants or Scythed Chariots and supported by other Pikes
Light Horse add +1 when in frontal close combat against any troops and supported by other Light Horse
Any foot, except Pikes or Double elements, add +1 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot other than Psiloi and supported by other foot except Pikes.
Double elements (6Kn, 8Sp, 6Bd, 8Bw) not in a city, fort or camp add +1 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot and the double element is entirely in good going.
this would be coupled with the reduced factor of 4 3 for Blade and 3 4 for Spear. as well as a modification to the Tactical factors:
-1 If any troops but Auxilia, Bows, Warband or Psiloi and in close combat in bad (not rough) going.
These adjustments would bring the Blade Foot factor in line with their 'when shot at' factor, so causes no issues for shooting however, Spear would be reduced when shot at. to counter this, one can modify the Flank support factors to allow spear to recieve side support when shot at (representing the benefit of shield wall tactics perhaps?). Flank support factors would now read as follows:
Flank support factors
Some "Solid" elements add +1 when in frontal close combat in good going against enemy foot or when shot at if at least one flank edge is in mutual side edge and mutual front corner contact with a friendly element. Spears add +1 if supported by Spears or Solid Blades (even if shot at), while Solid Bows add +1 if supported by Solid Blades in close combat only.” Fast elements neither give nor receive flank support.
Some "Solid" elements add +1 when in frontal close combat in good going against enemy foot or when shot at if at least one flank edge is in mutual side edge and mutual front corner contact with a friendly element. Spears add +1 if supported by Spears or Solid Blades (even if shot at), while Solid Bows add +1 if supported by Solid Blades in close combat only.” Fast elements neither give nor receive flank support.
The big questions:
Will this make Warband too strong? the reduced factors does make it a little easier for warband to get a quick kill, yes. but whether that degree impacts the game too much such that they are overpowered is debatable. overall i think the consensus is that it is probably fine, but play-testing would work this out, there are always ways of fixing this by adjusting the way warband work, but for now we will leave that to future debate.
Pikes +2 and only supported by Pikes? We wanted to retain the importance of the double-ranked Pike, and the +2 matches the pikes with the reduced Spear and Blade scores, however we wanted to avoid the use of other rear support troops to replace the rear pike support (basically doubling the width of a pike block), plus it doesn't really feel like a Pike block without that depth, so having Pikes get the +2 but only through support by other Pikes seems fair. some have argued for a +1 rear support from other foot for Pike, for very specific examples (something about the Swiss?) but we have left it out for the general house rule. feel free to continue to debate at your leisure
Psiloi Yes this will make Psiloi stronger as they can now receive rear support. it will give the puny Psiloi armies a bit more of a chance and bring them more in line with their horse-bound companions, the Light Horse who already recieve a +1 from rear support. Psiloi can also now have a role behind lines supporting troops once they flee from the front line.
Supporting Like for Like vs Anyone can rear support: Obviously theres already the exception with Pike of requiring a Pike for rear support, however there were many examples of historical situations in which one troop was supporting in a second line a completely different troop class. the amount of examples found meant that it felt better to go with a broader universal rear support system than the restrictions of the like for like system. of course some combinations may be stronger/weaker than others, and further play testing might suggest that some combinations dont feel right, but for now it doesn't seem like it will be overpowered.
Are rear support elements destroyed when the front element is destroyed? No, same as usual DBA 3.0. so keep in mind when deploying weak units in rear support that if the first unit dies, they will have to face whatever is coming their way!
Does Side Support still count? Yep! Side support remains, so spear still need a solid shield wall in order to perform at the same level as Blades. Additionally, side support allow spears to retain their full strength when shot at.
I'm sure there are many other points I'm missing that lead to the overall house rule. You're welcome to peruse the thread to get a better idea of why specific elements were decided. The house rule might not be more for everyone. it definitely as a more ancient than medieval period inspiration to it (I mostly play Punic Wars) so that is another factor to keep in mind!
Original Post:
Just thought I'd chip in with a variation of some of the house rules that have been going about that has so far been working well for me in the Punic wars setting. The basic gist is:
1) Pk,Bd & Sp have -1 combat factors against foot, so Blade is now 4 3 and spear is 3 4. This has been put forward to make auxilia stronger and I think it works well when combined with the second rule
2) all units get rear support! Basically heavy foot get rear support from heavy foot, lighter foot get rear support from light or heavy foot. And mounted get rear support from mounted.
Basically it enables the representation of the fighting in depth that is seen in this time period better. There was previously no reason to deploy more than one line unless you were a warband army and stretching out your whole army in one line gets cramped and uninspired on the smaller board.
Auxilia feel a lot stronger and able to keep the pace against spear and blades like they seemed to do historically. I haven't noticed any drawbacks thus far but would love to know your thoughts.
I also play the 1/2 pip to move LH which I think works well too.
Just thought I'd chip in with a variation of some of the house rules that have been going about that has so far been working well for me in the Punic wars setting. The basic gist is:
1) Pk,Bd & Sp have -1 combat factors against foot, so Blade is now 4 3 and spear is 3 4. This has been put forward to make auxilia stronger and I think it works well when combined with the second rule
2) all units get rear support! Basically heavy foot get rear support from heavy foot, lighter foot get rear support from light or heavy foot. And mounted get rear support from mounted.
Basically it enables the representation of the fighting in depth that is seen in this time period better. There was previously no reason to deploy more than one line unless you were a warband army and stretching out your whole army in one line gets cramped and uninspired on the smaller board.
Auxilia feel a lot stronger and able to keep the pace against spear and blades like they seemed to do historically. I haven't noticed any drawbacks thus far but would love to know your thoughts.
I also play the 1/2 pip to move LH which I think works well too.
