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Post by ronisan on Jun 8, 2020 13:36:42 GMT
Hello folks, after reading the corresponding rules again I have to correct my former agreement. (Sorry Stevie) The wording 'sideways slide' is only used in the paragraph considering lining up after having contacted an enemy front edge! (Page 9) On page 8 (Tactical Moves) there is no 'sliding'! Single elements don't 'slide' if they move perpendicular - they 'move oblique'!... And groups can only move forwards!. Considering that ... a group being partially in an enemy threat zone still has to move forwards (possibly by double wheeling to one side, then to the other side). zendor : I'm sorry but in my opinion, your intended perpendicular moves in enemy threat zones are no legal moves. Cheers Ronald.
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Post by arnopov on Jun 8, 2020 14:47:49 GMT
If that wasn't obvious enough, Figure 7a, point 2., makes it absolutely clear that "line up" and "Slide sideways" are equivalent. Unfortunately, the rule is mostly clear. Unfortunately, because it allows some pretty egregious moves. On the other hand, I have never (yet?) seen it abused in actual play.
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Post by zendor on Jun 8, 2020 15:58:57 GMT
As I get it right Barker makes difference between lining up and conforming, and this sentence on page 8 clearly demonstrates this: "...except to pivot, wheel and/or slide sideways to line up in an enemy TZ, OR to conform in close combat". So, group can slide sideways to line up or to conform. The Figure 11 shows which of the elements considered as lined up, and which are not. And all these examples are not related to combat. Then we can make conclusion that conforming relates only to combat, but lining up not only.
I got the arguments from both sides. If to generalize, one side thinks that in this case lining up = conforming, that's why this sentence (mentioned above) related only to groups which contact the enemy in close combat and then try to line up and conform. And therefore, sideways slides before contact with enemy as the whole group move are not possible.
The other side (headed by Stevie) thinks that lining up differs from conforming. Therefore this sentence refer to group movement in the enemy TZ also. So, such sideways slides as the whole group move are possible before and even without close combat contact at all.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood something.
If there are some other forum participants who wanna express their opinion on this issue, I'll be very grateful.
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Post by paulisper on Jun 8, 2020 16:19:34 GMT
Hello folks, after reading the corresponding rules again I have to correct my former agreement. (Sorry Stevie) The wording 'sideways slide' is only used in the paragraph considering lining up after having contacted an enemy front edge! (Page 9) On page 8 (Tactical Moves) there is no 'sliding'! Single elements don't 'slide' if they move perpendicular - they 'move oblique'!... And groups can only move forwards!. Considering that ... a group being partially in an enemy threat zone still has to move forwards (possibly by double wheeling to one side, then to the other side). zendor : I'm sorry but in my opinion, your intended perpendicular moves in enemy threat zones are no legal moves. Cheers Ronald. I’m with you here, for the most part, but disagree with your final statement. Both of the moves in the later diagrams zendor uses are permissible BUT you can’t do them by sliding sideways as a group for 1 pip - you would need to move as individual elements, costing you 2 pips to line up the TZ’’s in the first example and 4 pips in the second example. P
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Post by ronisan on Jun 8, 2020 16:24:51 GMT
Hi Zendor, arnopov and Stevie. You convinced me! There is a difference between lining up and conforming. Therefore... your intended (perpendular) group moves for lining up in enemy threat zones are legal for me 👍🤣. Thanks for enlighten me, guys. 🙏 Cheers, Ronald
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Post by stevie on Jun 8, 2020 16:26:53 GMT
Arnopov makes a good point...and Figure 7b even reinforces the options given in Figure 7a.
In Figure 7b we have a group column with its front element only in a TZ, and its move options are:- 1. Halt 2. To line-up with Blade-Y or pivot and line-up with Blade-X (sliding sideways without making contact) 3. To move straight towards and/or slide sideways (to) line-up with Blade-Y without making contact 4. To slide/pivot (and move) towards Blade-X and line-up (sideways) without making contact 5. To move into front-edge contact with either Blade-Y or Blade-X Only option 5 ends in contact...options 2, 3 and 4 all involve sliding sideways without making contact.
In addition, Figure 11 shows being lined-up without making contact.
So it appears that ‘lining-up’ is not solely confined to being in front-edge contact with the enemy. Sliding sideways to distantly line-up is entirely separate from the ‘free sideways slide’ when in contact. The only thing they have in common is the word ‘sideways’...but that doesn’t make them the same thing.
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Post by zendor on Jun 8, 2020 16:37:52 GMT
Hi Zendor, arnopov and Stevie. You convinced me! There is a difference between lining up and conforming. Therefore... your intended (perpendular) group moves for lining up in enemy threat zones are legal for me 👍🤣. Thanks for enlighten me, guys. 🙏 Cheers, Ronald Wow, I didn't expect on such easy victory! )) But I don't understand why you say "perpendicular"? This slide is performed in parallel, no? Or I got you wrong?
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Post by ronisan on Jun 8, 2020 17:42:29 GMT
Hi Zendor, I’m sorry. I’m not a native speaker🖖🏼. I tried to say “exactly to the left or right”🙄😜😋 Regards, Ronald
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Post by zendor on Jun 8, 2020 17:52:12 GMT
Hi Zendor, I’m sorry. I’m not a native speaker🖖🏼. I tried to say “exactly to the left or right”🙄😜😋 Regards, Ronald Oh yes, it's ok, I'm too.)) I was just starting to worry that we were talking about different things...
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Post by zendor on Jun 9, 2020 18:47:24 GMT
Further I will proceed from the solutions that the whole group can make a sideways slide being in the opponent's TZ. I understand that not everyone agrees with this interpretation, but I need to base further logic on some bases. I wanna show you the next diagram. What do you think, is it possible for Ps element to make a contact with a diagonal movement?
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Post by jeffreythancock on Jun 9, 2020 19:25:31 GMT
Illegal move, as the single Ps does not make front and corner to corner contact?
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 9, 2020 19:46:05 GMT
Illegal move, as the single Ps does not make front and corner to corner contact? I don't think it is an illegal move for that reason. It can then slide to its right in an attempt to conform until its movement is stopped by the Ax, at which point, the Bd must either conform or fight as if overlapped. (Or it could just move forward diagonally until it is clear of the Ax and then move straight forward.)
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Post by Baldie on Jun 9, 2020 19:57:38 GMT
I also think legal as it ends in contact with the Blade.
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Post by stevie on Jun 9, 2020 20:16:12 GMT
I do wish I could give you a nice simple unambiguous answer Zendor. Unfortunately such a simple explanation is not possible, so be prepared for yet another one of my own personal long-winded interpretations. Basically I think that no, the Ps in your picture cannot contact the Bd. The reason it cannot do so is because it is already ‘lined-up’ in a TZ. Figure 11 shows what being lined-up is...it’s when lines extending an element’s sides matches a distant enemy element’s sides. And Figures 7a and 7b shows the possible options for moving into a lined-up position when in a TZ...but I can find no examples of moving out of a lined-up position while they are still in a TZ. (It’s as if being lined-up in a TZ locks troops into that configuration) The FAQ has an example of this:- Q: I have an element of Blade that starts its move in the threat zone of a Spear that is on the end of a line of three enemy Spear. My Blade is lined up with the opposing spear. As I move my Blade forward, can I do so at an angle to catch multiple enemy Spear elements in my Threat Zone? Is this move allowed? A: No, you must stay lined up with Spear in front. Please reference diagram 7b for the proper ways to respond to a threat zone. Alternative movesCould the Aux move out of the way?: no, as it can only leave a TZ by moving directly straight back, and the Ps is in the way. Could the Ps interpenetrate the Aux?: no, because the Ps must start lined-up behind the Aux in order to interpenetrate it. The only way I can see of doing it is if the Aux first moves sideways to line-up with the Bd (see Figure 7a, option 2), then the Ps would be lined-up behind the Aux and could interpenetrate it. (But the Ps still needs enough room to do so...and there isn’t any)
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Post by Roland on Jun 9, 2020 20:20:39 GMT
Further I will proceed from the solutions that the whole group can make a sideways slide being in the opponent's TZ. I understand that not everyone agrees with this interpretation, but I need to base further logic on some bases. I wanna show you the next diagram. What do you think, is it possible for Ps element to make a contact with a diagonal movement? Its all about the "threat zone" If you have enough movement, as a single element, there is a lot of latitude in the movement, however, once an element is within an enemy threat zone, its pretty limited.
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