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Post by stevie on Jun 19, 2020 14:48:31 GMT
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 19, 2020 21:07:47 GMT
Phil wanted elements that in the real world would move to engage opposing elements without a bunch of geometric tricks preventing this. He wrote the first sentence we would understand that we should always error on the side of contact.
The purpose of a TZ is to prevent troops from maneuvering close to nearby enemies that might suddenly charge or shoot at them (at one point this was literally in the rules). They are not meant to prevent you from attacking the troops exerting the TZ. All the Ps is doing is moving up to attack the element exerting the TZ - its not maneuvering to avoid that element quite the contrary. This is why one of the legal moves in a TZ is to move up and contact the offending foe. It doesn't matter how you get there as we all recognize that bodies of troops are more fluid than our rigid elements and in any case depth is widely over scale. Nor do real world troops need to precisely line up with foes - we just do this for game purposes (its why the slide is free as its not actually real world movement).
However if you can't make contact then you have to at least end more lined up with the foe. Don't get these two legal moves confused.
Too bad PS can't just move through the Aux - I think Phil had forgotten the consequences of the phrase "lined up" when he tinkered with the interpenetration rule.
TomT
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Post by stevie on Jun 19, 2020 23:17:58 GMT
I do understand what you are saying Tom, that geometric ploys should not be used to prevent contact.
But consider Zendor’s diagrams from the opposite perspective...should the Blade lined-up with the Psiloi be allowed to bypass the Aux (which is closer and who’s TZ it is in) so that it can contact the Psiloi? HoTT wouldn’t allow it, as you’d have to contact the closest TZ generator. DBMM wouldn’t allow it, as you’d only be allowed to move in a straight line into contact. So why should DBA 3.0 allow it?
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Post by ronisan on Jun 20, 2020 7:42:51 GMT
Hi Stevie, according to the rules the blade element has the choice to attack the Ax or the Ps! What a wonderful tactical game! Instead of reducing the options... then you can play chess, where bishops can only move diagonally😉😂. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by paulisper on Jun 20, 2020 8:45:49 GMT
I do understand what you are saying Tom, that geometric ploys should not be used to prevent contact. But consider Zendor’s diagrams from the opposite perspective...should the Blade lined-up with the Psiloi be allowed to bypass the Aux (which is closer and who’s TZ it is in) so that it can contact the Psiloi? HoTT wouldn’t allow it, as you’d have to contact the closest TZ generator. DBMM wouldn’t allow it, as you’d only be allowed to move in a straight line into contact. So why should DBA 3.0 allow it? I have to say that I’m not comfortable with the Bd being allowed to do this, as it is moving away from being lined up in the TZ to then swing back to contact the Ps. You could use some of the same arguments as previous for the reverse move, but I don’t believe that this is in the spirit of what was intended... P
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Post by ronisan on Jun 20, 2020 9:23:11 GMT
Well, the Ps is not save, being contacted by the Bd. Player green should have considered that...maybe placing the Ps slightly backwards out of the Bd‘s TZ! Then, the Bd has to deal with the Ax only! But that‘s what it‘s all about. Tactics!😋 I‘ll stick to the rules as they are written! Great rules! Great games! Have fun.
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Post by stevie on Jun 20, 2020 9:31:04 GMT
Hi Stevie, according to the rules the blade element has the choice to attack the Ax or the Ps! What a wonderful tactical game! Instead of reducing the options... then you can play chess, where bishops can only move diagonally😉😂. Cheers, Ronald Ha! Not according to the FAQ Ronisan...the same FAQ that is meant to add additional understanding and more clarity to the rules. Q: I have an element of Blade that starts its move in the threat zone of a Spear that is on the end of a line of three enemy Spear. My Blade is lined-up with the opposing spear. As I move my Blade forward, can I do so at an angle to catch multiple enemy Spear elements in my Threat Zone? Is this move allowed? A: No, you must stay lined-up with the Spear in front. Please reference diagram 7b for the proper ways to respond to a threat zone. Joe says “I disallow any moves inside a TZ that makes an element less lined-up at any point in the move”... ...so follows the FAQ TZ ruling. Tom says "There is no requirement to ‘stay lined-up’ in a TZ”... ...which is the opposite of the FAQ TZ ruling. Perhaps the FAQ ruling is wrong, or maybe it’s only half right, and a bit of it is missing. Had it said:- “ A: No, you must stay lined-up with the Spear in front, unless moving into front-edge contact with the enemy exerting the TZ (what I call ‘its designated TZ target’)"...then that would support Tom’s view. Good grief...both Tom and Joe are members of the FAQ Team, and if they can’t agree then what chance do the rest of us have!
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Post by ronisan on Jun 20, 2020 10:26:03 GMT
stevie: I‘m sorry Stevie but I‘m not talking about the FAQ. I‘m talking about the rules (page 9, (b)), your Bd may advance and turn as long as you decrease and not increase the distance to the Sp in front of the Bd! But the Bd would be able to slightly wheel right to get the central Sp into his own TZ. Therefore „pinning“/threatening two elements of Sp! All according to the rules!😋
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Post by stevie on Jun 21, 2020 8:31:47 GMT
Following our Saturday night lock-down Zoom drink-up, where we constantly change our background pictures to various pub interiors in order to simulate a virtual pub-crawl (and many cans of wicked strength cider was consumed by yours truly!🍺), my little gang of DBA players discussed Threat Zones. Since none of my mates are interested in tournaments, and I only occasionally play in them, and since we already use several house rules as standard in our games, we decided why on earth should we use a poorly written and confusing TZ rule that has weird nonsensical unrealistic outcomes, that causes us to frown deeply, shake our heads, and leave a bad taste in our mouths. So we have settled on the following.
Firstly, MedievalThomas is right The FAQ TZ ruling is only partly correct, because it’s missing a section, and it should read as:- “A: No, you must stay lined-up with the Spear in front, unless moving into front-edge contact with the enemy exerting the TZ (what I call ‘its designated TZ target’)”
Proof of this can be found in this example:-
Element-A obstacle Element-1
Here two elements are lined-up in each other’s TZ, but there's an obstacle partially between them. This obstacle could be an element, a piece of terrain, part of a city or fort, or even be impassable. If line-up elements must stay lined-up, then it would be impossible to reach their opponent... ...or it would force entry into bad going instead of simply going around it. This is ridiculous.
Secondly, the HoTT TZ rules are right When in a TZ, the ‘designated target’ should be the enemy that can be reached by the shortest move. Note that the shortest move is not the same as the shortest measured distance, element-to-element.
Take this example:-
Element-A Element-2 Element-1
Here Element-A and Element-1 are lined-up in each other’s TZ, but Element-2 (which is not actually touching Element-A) is in the way. Do players really think it’s realistic to have Element-A zipping around Element-2 in order to reach Element-1, just because a poorly written and badly thought-out rule says so?
This does mean that Element-1 can contact Element-A, but Element-A cannot contact Element-1, as the move to do so is greater, so Element-A must make Element-2 its ‘designated TZ target’, as that move is shorter... ...but that is the price you pay for being in two Threat Zones, where your move options should be limited. If Element-1 were not there, then Element-A would have to designate Element-2 as its TZ target, as it is clearly a nearby threat. Well, that nearby threat is not going to disappear just because of the TZ from another more distant enemy!
This also means that when a single element is victorious in fending off a simultaneous frontal + flank attack, the recoiled flank attackers will take a longer move to reach them than those that recoiled from the front. So it’ll be the frontal recoiled enemy that will become by default the ‘designated TZ target’. This is what happens in HoTT, and a similar thing happens in DBMM...and players using those rulesets don’t complain.
So there you have it This is what we have decided to do, and to hell with what the rules say, as it gives a consistent, realistic, and common sense approach to the Threat Zone move options. Other players, and tournament organizers, will have to find their own solutions to try and un-muddy the mess that is the DBA TZ rules.
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Post by ronisan on Jun 21, 2020 10:57:02 GMT
Once upon a time the TZ only extended until contacting the first element („rolling carpet“-rule). But nowadays, TZs are X-ray TZs! I think Stevie wants the best of both worlds: X-ray TZs for „pinning“ enemy elements... but „rolling carpet rule“ for going into contact/conforming for CC?
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Post by stevie on Jun 21, 2020 15:50:42 GMT
Actually Ronisan, my mates and I quite like the concept of X-Ray TZ’s, and want to keep it. Oh, it may seem to be a bit artificial and ‘gamey’ at times, but the alternative is even more ‘gamey’, such as allowing a rear rank of Wb (or even worse Pk) completely free to nip left or right sideways at will to provide variable rear-support to the Wb or Pk in the main battleline in front of them. And preventing rear ranks from moving about as they like does make breakthroughs in the centre more decisive, thus causing a need to keep a separate reserve available thus simulating the Roman multiple line battle-style as opposed to the Macedonian or Barbarian ‘massed column’ tactics. As for wanting ‘the best of both worlds’, you are dead right. All we want are TZ move options that are sensible and realistic - not outlandishly weird and ‘gamey’. And if this means combining the best mechanisms from several different sources, then so be it. Because it’s the effects on our wargames table that is important...and it is the duty of the rules to make those effects come about (something that the present DBA TZ rules spectacularly fails to do). Many players seem to think that blindly following a set of flawed and poorly written TZ rules is the best way to get realistic and sensible TZ move options on the table...but they are wrong. After all, it's the horse that pulls the cart, not the cart that pushes the horse...
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