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Post by goragrad on May 31, 2018 9:01:51 GMT
Ave -
As noted I am working on some Low Country pike and planconmen as well as some pavise crossbowmen.
Are there any references as to devices or painting schemes for their shields?
Getting ready to wrap up the planconmen and have the pikemen coming along as well and have yet to find any info on the shields (did find some banner info online).
Otherwise will just do some basic early Medieval paint jobs along the lines of the figures I got off ebay.
Any assistance appreciated.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on May 31, 2018 13:16:21 GMT
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Post by timurilank on May 31, 2018 15:56:10 GMT
In addition to Tony’s fine link I would suggest the book by J.F. Verbruggen, The Art of Warfare in Western Europe During the Middle Ages. Verbruggen is a Belgian military historian and this book is quite an in depth study of the period. Army standard would be the flag of the principality with smaller banners representing the various city guilds. Shields should reflect their colour schemes, but planting a banner on the base for the guild would be a nice touch. (Search for illustrations of the Courtrai Chest). As the guilds were not of identical strength, perhaps two or three figures can represent the larger guild and the remaining figure one of the smaller enterprises. Flemish knights were not highly regarded by their allies; perhaps they lacked the ‘panache’ of their French counterpart and therefore the 4Pk option. The ‘a’ sub-list has a list of interesting allies, in particular the ‘peasant’ armies of the Free Cantons; Friesian lands, the German North Sea coast and Dithmarsch. Flemish Medieval Guildsduckduckgo.com/?q=Flemish+medieval+guilds&t=h_&ia=images&iax=images |
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Post by paddy649 on May 31, 2018 21:09:37 GMT
Oooh! Thank you Tony. Not seen before! Nice resource!
I'm cut and pasting furiously so I can print next time work allows me access to a laser printer!
Paddy
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Post by Tony Aguilar on May 31, 2018 21:11:10 GMT
There are several useful flag sets on that website.  |
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Post by goragrad on Jun 1, 2018 7:56:35 GMT
Thanks fellows.
Yes Tony those were the banners I found (should have mentioned the site).
Ahh Timurilank, your search criteria obviously were better thought out than mine - Low Country Pike. It did give Farley's website which had some pics I found useful, but the figures were later pike without shields.
I see Dzuzhina in that search - not surprising, thought of his site but wasn't sure how well I could get around on it.
Lots of reds in those color plates, however I note that the MTW people went with some other colors on the tunics (not that they are the best at historical accuracy).
At any rate, Timurilank I see that abe books has a used hardcover copy of the Verbruggen available for under $20 shipped. Was looking at ordering some miniatures (noted in Who is ordering what? thread), may have to reduce an order and pickup the book.
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Post by timurilank on Jun 1, 2018 8:37:53 GMT
Thanks fellows. Yes Tony those were the banners I found (should have mentioned the site). Ahh Timurilank, your search criteria obviously were better thought out than mine - Low Country Pike. It did give Farley's website which had some pics I found useful, but the figures were later pike without shields. I see Dzuzhina in that search - not surprising, thought of his site but wasn't sure how well I could get around on it. Lots of reds in those color plates, however I note that the MTW people went with some other colors on the tunics (not that they are the best at historical accuracy). At any rate, Timurilank I see that abe books has a used hardcover copy of the Verbruggen available for under $20 shipped. Was looking at ordering some miniatures (noted in Who is ordering what? thread), may have to reduce an order and pickup the book. The black lion rampant on a yellow field would do for an army banner (Courtrai). However, you would have to look up the cities that supplied men for a particular battle which may give you a different field colour for your shields. It would seem logical, the design for wheelwright, mason, butcher, weaver or other guilds might have been standard among the Flemish cities, but I cannot confirm this.
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Post by goragrad on Jun 2, 2018 8:24:00 GMT
Thanks again.
At this point I find a field of barry gules and argent for Bruges and one of sable for Ghent.
As I am ultimately doing a BBDBA army it looks that I will need to do as suggested and research the OB of some of the battles (as suggested) to see which towns and cities were represented in them.
At least at this point I have some guild and society devices from the previous assistance.
And to be frank, as long as I get enough information to be reasonably close it will do.
My hoplites have devices spanning a couple of centuries based on some good sources as there were not enough in any one period to do an entire army in any one source. And at this time my feudal and early Middle Age knights are pretty generic.
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Post by timurilank on Jun 4, 2018 8:58:39 GMT
Thanks again. At this point I find a field of barry gules and argent for Bruges and one of sable for Ghent. As I am ultimately doing a BBDBA army it looks that I will need to do as suggested and research the OB of some of the battles (as suggested) to see which towns and cities were represented in them. At least at this point I have some guild and society devices from the previous assistance. And to be frank, as long as I get enough information to be reasonably close it will do. My hoplites have devices spanning a couple of centuries based on some good sources as there were not enough in any one period to do an entire army in any one source. And at this time my feudal and early Middle Age knights are pretty generic. I am painting a large number of flags for late medieval period. Controlling the links I found the flags for the Guilds of Ghent (1300 – 1450). Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html
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Post by goragrad on Jun 5, 2018 8:52:54 GMT
Excellent Timurilank. Have bookmarked the site, will be looking at a lot of the other items there. Got to thinking and went to my copy of Heath's Armies of the Middle Ages - BK 1. While the TTG pike are based on the Flemish in Head's Armies of the Dark Ages. the planconmen are based on the illustration in the Heath book (amusingly near identical aside from weapon...). In the description for the planconmen he lists some possible 'uniform' colors for the contingents from the various cities based on Froissart's account of the battle of Roosebeke -  Nice thing about the list is that it also provides cities. |
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Post by paddy649 on Jun 9, 2018 11:35:47 GMT
Timurilank,
Thanks. That is a really good resource.
My unpainted IV/57 Low Countries Army has now become the Army of Ghent and has bumped up several places in the "To be Painted" pile. However, given I've got 10 Armies in that pile - it still may be a ways off!
Paddy
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Post by timurilank on Jun 9, 2018 16:40:41 GMT
Timurilank,
Thanks. That is a really good resource.
My unpainted IV/57 Low Countries Army has now become the Army of Ghent and has bumped up several places in the "To be Painted" pile. However, given I've got 10 Armies in that pile - it still may be a ways off!
Paddy
Through the passage of time, many of the bookmarked flag, banner and shield links are no longer valid. I would copy these and file them away for latter use.
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Post by paddy649 on Jun 9, 2018 17:43:10 GMT
Already done! :-)
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Post by goragrad on Jun 11, 2018 8:16:43 GMT
Same here - have had too many linked sites die. The old Fanaticus site with its resources being one.
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Post by goragrad on Jun 13, 2018 9:14:34 GMT
One thing I noted in my research, Timurilank, was that the weavers were the largest guild in most of these cities. However, that site with the flags of Ghent's guilds does not have a flag for them. There is a link there to another site with some flags for corporations in Brugges including weavers. Still being curious, I did some more research (not a fan of google, but it is a bit better for image searches, so made a temporary switch to their engine). In doing so I came across another source a document from 1846 - Belgisch museum voor de Nederduitsche tael- en letterkunde en de geschiedenis des vaderlands. Deel 10(1846)–J.F. Willems, [tijdschrift] Belgisch Museum - at the DBNL (Digitale Bibliotheek voor de Nederlandse Letteren). www.dbnl.org/tekst/will028belg10_01/will028belg10_01_0001.phpMy Dutch is rather lacking (I did figure out what a wapenschild was and used that in some searches), the document appears to be dealing with poetry and other writings, but has several plates of wapenschild including the wollewever (which appropriately has a pair of shuttles). The plates appear to date to the mid-16th C, so not sure for example if the lions that appear with some guild specific charges would be appropriate for earlier periods. However, they do pretty much match the arms displayed on the statue of Jacob van Artevelde on the Vrijdagmarkt in Ghent (erected in 1863). On that note, I also found a nice page on the statute with labels identifying each guild - www.gent-geprent.com/straten-van-gent/straten-n-z/straten-v/vrijdagmarkt/jacob-van-arteveldeOf particular interest is the prominence given the arms of the wevers, volers, Sint Jorisgilde, and Sint Sebastiaansgilde (definitely looking like a later version) on the corners of the base. This leads me to believe that they may be the more important guilds in the battles. At any rate, should anyone else be inclined to muck around with a Low Country army this might be of assistance (or just TMI...). |
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