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Post by timurilank on Jun 13, 2018 10:19:50 GMT
“The plates appear to date to the mid-16th C, so not sure for example if the lions that appear with some guild specific charges would be appropriate for earlier periods. However, they do pretty much match the arms displayed on the statue of Jacob van Artevelde on the Vrijdagmarkt in Ghent (erected in 1863).”
Poetry or near enough Psalms with religious overtone. The guild coat of arms however are a fine depiction of new business growth during the Spanish occupation. Flanders became a staging area for the planned invasion of England.
The second link is an excellent reference; Barber-surgeon, brewers and smithy.
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Post by goragrad on Jun 13, 2018 10:26:45 GMT
Good to know.
I had tried to get a translation on the name on what ended up being the black leatherworkers guild from an online translator and failed so I was not feeling up to trying to translate more...
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Post by timurilank on Jun 13, 2018 11:04:00 GMT
Good to know. I had tried to get a translation on the name on what ended up being the black leatherworkers guild from an online translator and failed so I was not feeling up to trying to translate more... The processing of leather items progressed through a number of stages with each stage handled by a different guild. The zwartleertouwers 'softened' the leather enough to be made into a final product.
Scroll down to page 29.
users.skynet.be/VIATvzw/deel81bis.pdf
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Post by goragrad on Jun 16, 2018 10:05:28 GMT
Interesting link. Has me wondering where the Fuller's Guild is - or am I just not conversant enough in Dutch? After all it was a dispute between the Weavers and Fullers that got Artevelde killed. Leading me to believe that they were also a major guild. As with those leather workers, every time I try to get an occupational name translated online it gives me some other usage (fuller as in more full...), makes a guess at the word, or just can't find it. On another note, in mucking about a bitmore on the topic online I came across this illustration of the surrender of the burghers to Phillip the Good - c1.staticflickr.com/2/1739/27961985457_9380040d01_b.jpgInterestingly some fields are blue rather than red on the banners visible. There is also a difference in some of the charges - three shuttles for the weavers and no lion and two hammers and a pair of tongs and for the smiths rather than one and two pairs of smith's tongs. Ship and what I can see of the candlemakers device looks the same aside from the field color. As I noted on 'Who's painting what,' I did the shields for the planconmen (Alex has no worries about competition from me) and used the three shuttles for my weavers (not particularly identifiable on my 15s). As I had been working on them before doing all this research I had already painted the surcoats and so didn't do a city color. That will be the PK. |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 28, 2018 14:19:51 GMT
Goragrad,
According to Wikipedia (Dutch), the Witte Kaproenen (White Hoods) of Ghent was formed to protect city officials. The white hood worn was their recognisable feature of their apparel. Under the leadership of Jan Hyoens, they helped fortify the city defences during the revolt of Ghent (1379).
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witte_Kaproenen
Brugge (capital of Flanders) and Ieper had similar corps but wore red and blue hoods respectively.
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 28, 2018 15:44:55 GMT
Would the Guildsmen of Ghent have tunics of the same colour as their flags?
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Post by goragrad on Jul 29, 2018 0:07:03 GMT
Dank Timurilank, more grist for the mill. Looks like for BBDBA I'll have some variety with the different city contingents.
If you haven't noticed, paddy and I have had some discussion on suitable figures and I posted a link to a website devoted to Froissart that I got over on TMP from Duncan Head with a picture of the White Hoods.
Paddy649 - it appears that they did (I have an attachment on the prior page with the various city colors per Froissart) - blue dexter and yellow sinister.
I will probably use a couple of shades of blue and yellow when doing the different guilds.
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 29, 2018 6:24:49 GMT
Thanks Goragrad.
So for a 15mm Ghent Army I should do Blue and Yellow tunics to represent the city colours. That’ll look good. I think I’ll throw in a few yellow only and blue only ones for variety especially where guild flags have blue / yellow backgrounds.
I should use a selection of the flags from that excellent web site (already printed) but make sure I at least include the weavers. Also noting that my army will be early I should go easy on the flags with Sheild motifs - but they are the better looking ones so I may ignore this advice! I’m also thinking of doing my planconmen as the weavers guild to get around not having a flag for them.
Sheilds I should do either echoing the guild flag or the city shields Either black with white lion or yellow with the black lion.
Whitehoods as we discussed in blues, dark reds or dark yellows with white hoods.
If this is all correct then you have all done my research already - Thankyou. I can now crack on with the painting!
Paddy
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Post by goragrad on Jul 29, 2018 11:05:18 GMT
Sounds good - you should include Timurilank in that thanks - he pulled in some links that got me pointed in the appropriate directions. And also provided additional direction and information as well.
Have to say that Ghent is a good choice for at least one reason - two tone tunics split vertically will be a lot easier to paint that checky or bendy... Not sure which way I'll go with my second army on the tunics.
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Post by paddy649 on Jul 29, 2018 14:46:48 GMT
Yes - really good research from the both of you. Thanks.
Second Low Countries Army has to be Damme - red and white quarters being a perfect foil to the yellows and blue of Ghent.
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 2, 2018 20:27:33 GMT
Help! My Islamic Berbers are now complete and on the basing tray to textured etc.....so My Low Countries Gent army has now hit the painting table where a muster of the figures reveals that my appreciation of how to paint them above missed some very important elements - the Knights!
The IV/57a list contains options for a 3Kn General and another 3Kn. Now I do have the figures for them but absolutely no idea about the heraldry I should use on their shields and horses. Do they echo the city heraldry? Are there any important Ghent families that I should represent? I'm not sure that guild heraldry would be appropriate. Any thoughts?
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Post by gregorius on Aug 2, 2018 23:50:01 GMT
Why not use the Count of Flanders as your Kn General. For the second Kn element I'd use the city's banner as the basis for the knight's pallette.
Cheers,
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Post by goragrad on Aug 3, 2018 1:42:34 GMT
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Post by goragrad on Aug 3, 2018 4:48:18 GMT
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 3, 2018 7:53:40 GMT
Thanks Goragrad, Most comprehensive and very helpful. Given that the 2 x 3Kn option is only for the IV/57a list then picking out the heraldry for 6 of the 'notables' present at the Battle of Courtrai would be appropriate...probably the ones with the easiest heraldry to paint. I think Jacob van Artevelde may also get a run out as well as his shield looks rather simple but it looks like I'll have to master "Lions Rampant" and given that it is only 6 I might have some fun with these Knights. As an aside - I noticed on the Jacob van Artevelde a shield for the weavers guild which we discussed earlier and you indicated was one of if not the biggest guild - a white Lion Rampant flanked by 2 gold weaving shuttles on a red border. This will now get an outing with a pike element but I may have to repaint the closest flag to suit. The other picture I found on wiki shows what could be planconmen carrying the shield of Flanders - so I might use this as the guide for them....don't be afraid of pink! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Golden_Spurs#/media/File:Courtrai.jpg This is all coming together rather nicely. Can't wait to get pant on the figures. De-flashing starts today but sadly they'll compete with Owain Glyndŵr's Welsh Pikemen for a few weeks and basing the Berbers... plus I have holiday. Paddy |
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