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Post by jim1973 on Apr 22, 2019 8:22:04 GMT
What are the first and second dice rolls for? The dice rolls were to determine the invader/defender as per regular DBA 3. The first roll was a tie. Normally this would be forgotten for eternity but the Time and Weather Rules use the rolls to determine the time of day. Cheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 22, 2019 8:19:00 GMT
Looking forward to learning more. Details on a blog? Pictures? Unfortunately, I can't upload any pictures as the site is full. "sigh" It may be time for a blog. Any thoughts on a host site? Jim PS Just deleted an older pic at 375KB but still couldn't add a 275KB postage stamp of the battle. |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 21, 2019 10:57:52 GMT
Now I'm no linguist (I'm Australian after all) but a quick Google search found this little gem about the word "or" :
One implication of using the multiple ors, rather than a single one and then a comma, is that it emphasizes that all three options are equally good.
The author is purportedly a professional writer/editor for 20 years with a Master's degree in linguistics and formal training in editing. If this can be verfied then shouldn't we take each option as a separate independent condition?
But then again, if the development team is in agreement on the intent of the rule then I am happy to go along with that.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 21, 2019 10:33:56 GMT
I think so paddy649. But one can never be sure with these rules!  I rember doing a similar calculation some time ago and 6x3BW with some adjustment was what I came up with at the time. I bit the bullet and made them a tiny bit smaller just in case anyone was carrying a laser ruler. Cheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 21, 2019 10:19:45 GMT
I've embarked on a mini-campaign using my newly finished armies. I'll be using a combination of stevie's Mapless Wars, the Time and Weather Rules I cobbled together from DBM 3.2 and DBMM, as well as some "free form" GMing. I decided to consider Brittania as the the Viking homeland as it seemed to me that Leidang forces would defend Scandinavia. Here is the write-up for the first battle:
Hjor Hoskuldsson gathered his forces for a Spring assault on Northumbria. After landing his forces and securing supplies he headed inland to find the local settlement. His scouts identified the army of Aldhere and he set out to meet him in battle. Aldhere being a cautious man and did not rush to meet his enemy. He knew that he could outlast a raiding force on his own land. Finally, Hjor caught up with him and forced battle. But the day was getting long, and time was of the essence. He set off with the wind buffeting his flowing blonde hair.
Set up
Saxon Viking
Climate Cool Cool
Terrain Arable Littoral
Aggression 2 4
Season (if invader) Summer Spring
1st dice roll (tie) 5 3
2nd dice roll 3 6
Battle would occur in Spring on Arable land at 1700 hrs (5+3+3+6) in Strong Winds (6-3=3; Spring; Cool; no effect as no shooters). This provided only four turns each before Dusk. Then two turns each restricted by Dusk before Night.
Hjor pushed forward with his men as fast as he could. But his left flank was slowed by a fast flowing river (5 die roll). Aldhere stood off, choosing to remain near his camp to await nightfall. The main battlelines clashed with the leaders facing off against each other. However, no one gained a decisive advantage before nightfall and the forces broke off to lick their wounds. Aldhere’s men did manage to chase off a group of raiders (one 3Bd destroyed). An indecisive clash of arms occurred on the far side of the river before the sun went down for the night.
Aldhere gains 1 strategic point for staying on the field as the defender with his Camp intact. Neither army was routed so army composition is unrestricted. As this was an indecisive battle the forces will meet again this season.
Hjor is seeking redemption for his dead but Aldhere is wondering if he can knock the invader off his beach and back into the sea…
Next battle will have to wait until after a family holiday.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 21, 2019 9:54:32 GMT
To play Devil's Advocate paddy649, imagine the situation where the group of soldiers next to you is fighting to their front and then 4-500 troops turn up on their flank over a frontage of 80p. The flank of your engaged friends would only be 10-20p wide. A lot of shouting angry soldiers with sharp weapons will be heading for your rear fairly quickly. Maybe you wouldn't necessarily make the call to assist if you are extremely worried that your flank will soon be exposed? Maybe you freeze in place or prepare to be outflanked? It's just a thought exercise, trying to put my mind's eye into the shoes of men facing immediate danger with a much clearer knowledge than us of how devastating a flank attack can be.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 21, 2019 7:08:39 GMT
Oh well, this is not the first time I’ve been fooled by taking the rules literally, as they are written.
Ahh but stevie, they do, just not unambiguously! When I'm trying to interpret all the "or" and "and" that PB likes to use, I try to make separate sentences/phrases. So I would make this section out as: An element or group which is at least partly within (a Threat Zone) An element or group whose front edge enters an enemy TZ An element or group that touches its ( the Threat Zone's) far edge This seems to match joe's interpretation. Obviously, it can be read as you and many others (including myself until this week) have read it. Maybe it should read: An element or group: i) which is at least partly in a Threat Zone
ii) whose front edge enters an enemy Threat Zone
iii) that touches the front edge of an enemy Threat Zone
can move only...
but such extravagances may turn the the 4 pages of battle rules into an unwieldy 5 pages!
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:51:45 GMT
True labour of love macbeth! Very impressive.
What figures did you use for I/14a European Bronze Age? I have NKE and will definitely do Later Mycenaean (both lists) using Old Glory. I want to add Hittites and European Bronze Age but I can't find figures for the European Bronze Age.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:43:18 GMT
Nice work. A bit of milliput, filler or caulking can blend in the old base edges and can also be given texture for the base. I've toyed with 6mm DBA on double sized bases to give a real mass effect. But I like the larger board (75cm) so doubling that to 150x150cm wasn't going to work. Still considering 6mm on the 25mm bases. For those Downunder I highly recommend back-2-base-ix in South Australia for laser cut bases. Enormous range and excellent service. back 2 base-ixCheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:33:49 GMT
All of the development team were 2.2 players, and I do not believe any of them "had already turned much of the US DBA tournament community against DBA 3. It was the proponents of the so-called DBA 2.2+ that turned the US community against 3.0. They already had turned the community against 2.2. As folks local to the convention sites, they were able to get to the conventions and set up their events. I was at that a time the DBA Chief Umpire, but was distracted by DBA 3 development so stopped running DBA 2.2 events. I tried to run some DBA 3 events in the 2011 and later period but they drew insufficient players, as all were now involved with the + game. Some of those + developers were invited to participate in 3 development but they did not get their particular suggestions accepted early on so dropped out early instead of staying the longterm course with compromise. The development group did have a number of DBMM players who often suggest that processes from that game be included, DBMM lite, as Joe says. Not many of those ideas got to the final version. Many of the group had never even played DBMM. There was a common misconception that DBA was a stepping stone to DBMM. Many of us pointed out that a vast majority of the DBA community did not play DBMM. DBA is a sufficient game unto itself, but the notion of introduction to DBMM remains. We did convince Phil that the overlap was in the concepts and not the players  2011 version "There is a large overlap between players of DBA and players of DBMM; so DBA can serve as a simpler introduction to DBMM (or to ancient wargaming in general) as well as a stand-alone game. " Final version "There is a large overlap between the concepts of DBMM and those of DBA; so DBA can serve as a simpler introduction to DBMM (or to ancient wargaming in general) as well as a stand-alone game." I wanted just clarifications to 2.2 as I was satisfied with how it played, but not how it was understood. I argued against many changes, but for some, and in the end am very happy now with how it turned out. Chiefly I argued against complexity. There were about 80 drafts by the way. And again a thank you to you and the entire development team for working so hard to provide the best edition of DBA we have seen. Cheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:30:49 GMT
But an unengaged column has a full 15 minutes of game time to watch the enemy approaching.
Hi stevie. Nice to be on the same page as yourself and primuspilus. primuspilus identified the morale hit that would occur if you saw enemy to your rear. A whole fifteen minutes to contemplate your mortality may strengthen your resolve or break it to pieces. Simply turning to face as if a full back switched play to the other wing doesn't feel right. I'm sure we'll start a thread on the House Rules section to discuss Pikes in general and Hellenistic pikes in particular. At least we have a clear adjudication for the "rules as written". Cheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:21:27 GMT
Thank you for sharing. But now I have to get the armies...any recommendations?
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:19:02 GMT
With my vast experience of DBR - one game, and that was v2, I wonder whether it would be really possible to have Pike and Shot as one element given that the figure scale is around one element to 100 soldiers. I think you may have hit the nail on the head here. It is the figure scale that causes the problem. Not my area (though matched ECW armies do sound nice...) but could the figure scale work with Pendraken 10mm or Baccus 6mm? They are nice sculpts. Cheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 23:14:04 GMT
Very nice! Timely too!. My 7 yo has my 10mm Commonwealth and Ottoman forces out for a run and I was musing over the camel corps.
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 14, 2019 12:53:39 GMT
Thanks joe. It was worrying when you and bob couldn't agree. But there it is. Rules as written. he debate has been interesting.
However, I am with stevie and primuspilus in that I will be "houseruling" (is that a verb?) pikes. martin is right, in that an enemy attacking from the rear should cause maximum disadvantage. But why is it worse for supported elements? primuspilus has made the argument for Phillips's phalanx against 8Sp Thebans. I'm also imagining 8Bw archer/pavise infantry picking up the pavise and running back without an issue. It doesn't make sense. Nor does the thought that half a Macedonian phalanx breaks off to fight independently while the other is oblivious. There is no historical justification.
It's a shame PB compromised. Surprising too, given his knowledge of the era. I love his Alexander the Great's Campaign book! Hellenistic Pike armies are already penalised by a very short battleline (3x2Pk). I believe the idea was to allow outflanking by Polybian Roman armies but the Romans do not have to form in triple acies. They can deploy 8x4Bd across and outflank and then some. Add pursuit and Pikes are nerfed.
I will be trying 8Pk as a house rule and I will report back.
Cheers
Jim
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