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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 13:31:35 GMT
I do agree with you Ronald (there, I bet that surprised you!  )… …but I do so for slightly different reasons. Nowhere, absolutely NOWHERE, does it say in the rules that conforming is not really moving. That notion is nothing more than a player invented miss-conception. Allowing conforming to ‘not really be moving’ causes loads of weird stupid side-effects:- * It lets elements and groups exceed their normal travel distances (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets WWg & Art to pass through and even end in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets groups to pass through and end as a group in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets ‘Static’ troops (CP/Lit/CWg/WWg/Art) to end in close combat (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It lets groups leave a Threat Zone without moving straight back (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… * It even lets groups cross deep rivers as a group (as conforming is not ‘moving’)… Page 9 Contacting The Enemy does say “Contactors conform using their tactical move…”, but it doesn’t say “Those that must conform can ignore ALL normal movement rules”. Hello Stevie, I‘m quite touched … And I need some time to think about your statements: * It lets elements and groups exceed their normal travel distances (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…Well - that‘s just the official 1 BW extra slide if contacting an enemy front edge … so what? * It lets WWg & Art to pass through and even end in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…
* It lets groups to pass through and end as a group in Bad Going (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…* It lets ‘Static’ troops (CP/Lit/CWg/WWg/Art) to end in close combat (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…Well - bad general (!), who lets his troops being lured into Bad Going, needing 1 PIP and single element moves to get them out again. But e.g. Art and WWg are not able to enter Bad Going at all! They would not conform if that would take them into Bad Going … and therefore would fight with -1 as overlapped … so what? * It lets groups leave a Threat Zone without moving straight back (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…This one I don‘t understand? Group leaving a TZ by conforming? … how‘s that going to work? * It even lets groups cross deep rivers as a group (as conforming is not ‘moving’)…And how‘s this going to happen? … Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by stevie on Feb 8, 2022 18:50:22 GMT
I think you may be missing the point Ronald.  Here the red group has moved into contact, but cannot conform, therefore the blue player needs to do the conforming instead. The single blue element must conform, as it is contacted by a group. But for the entire blue group to conform as a group, the end CP must travel 3 BW (!). So much for groups travel at the speed of the slowest element within their group… The situation is even worse if there is any Rough or Bad going between the groups. Then the distance the blue group should travel is only 1 BW…certainly not 3 BW! And all this is before they touch the red front-edge, and can claim the 1 BW slide. As for WWg and Art, consider a single one of these near some Bad Going (perhaps to protect their flank from an attack…which is a sensible thing to do). If this single ‘Static’ element is hit on a front-corner by an enemy group, it must conform. But such conforming may result in the single WWg and Art partially entering the Bad Going. So how does it move out again? It won’t pursue, it won’t recoil, and it cannot move at all off-road in Bad Going. It’s stuck there for the rest of the entire game! And if WWg and Art cannot move into Bad Going when conforming, then conforming does count as moving.  These difficulties are solved by accepting that conforming WILL still follow all the movement rules. Especially as nowhere in the rules does it say otherwise. |
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 19:34:04 GMT
I think you may be missing the point Ronald.  Here the red group has moved into contact, but cannot conform, therefore the blue player needs to do the conforming instead. The single blue element must conform, as it is contacted by a group. But for the entire blue group to conform as a group, the end CP must travel 3 BW (!). So much for groups travel at the speed of the slowest element within their group… The situation is even worse if there is any Rough or Bad going between the groups. Then the distance the blue group should travel is only 1 BW…certainly not 3 BW! And all this is before they touch the red front-edge, and can claim the 1 BW slide. As for WWg and Art, consider a single one of these near some Bad Going (perhaps to protect their flank from an attack…which is a sensible thing to do). If this single ‘Static’ element is hit on a front-corner by an enemy group, it must conform. But such conforming may result in the single WWg and Art partially entering the Bad Going. So how does it move out again? It won’t pursue, it won’t recoil, and it cannot move at all off-road in Bad Going. It’s stuck there for the rest of the entire game! And if WWg and Art cannot move into Bad Going when conforming, then conforming does count as moving. These difficulties are solved by accepting that conforming WILL still follow all the movement rules. Especially as nowhere in the rules does it say otherwise. Hello Stevie, If I would be the blue general, I would conform with the single element (on the right) … but not with the group. Not even 1 or 2 BW. I would fight with the outmost element of the group (contacted by its corner) with -1 and being overlapped. Next bound would be blue bound! Time for revenge/attacking red or retreat CP back into safety.  WWg and Art don’t conform into Bad Going - they never deploy nor enter Bad Going (!)… They never get stuck in Bad Going! See page 9 MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY: „If conforming to a front edge by contractors is prevented by … terrain … contacted elements … fight as if in full contact and overlapped“. Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by stevie on Feb 8, 2022 20:02:11 GMT
Incorrect I’m afraid:-
“...except that Artillery and War Wagons cannot deploy or move at all off-road in bad going.”
MOVE it says…not ENTER.
So I repeat…
…if WWg and Art cannot move into Bad Going when conforming, then conforming does count as moving.
Oh…and groups using conforming to move out of an enemy Threat Zone…
…this happens all the time.
▄ ▄▄▄
▄▄▄
↑
The red group moves forward…slides to the right to align-up in a TZ as a group…
…or it moves straight forwards…contacts the blue group…and then slides sideways.
Either way, the left hand red element of the group slips out of the single blue element’s TZ.
(Conforming or lining-up does not force groups to split-up, or Figures 13c & 13d would look very different)
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Post by ronisan on Feb 8, 2022 21:39:47 GMT
Incorrect I’m afraid:- “...except that Artillery and War Wagons cannot deploy or move at all off-road in bad going.” MOVE it says…not ENTER. So I repeat… …if WWg and Art cannot move into Bad Going when conforming, then conforming does count as moving. Oh…and groups using conforming to move out of an enemy Threat Zone… …this happens all the time. ▄ ▄▄▄
▄▄▄ ↑The red group moves forward…slides to the right to align-up in a TZ as a group… …or it moves straight forwards…contacts the blue group…and then slides sideways. Either way, the left hand red element of the group slips out of the single blue element’s TZ. (Conforming or lining-up does not force groups to split-up, or Figures 13c & 13d would look very different)Hi Stevie, ok - so you play it this way: An element of Artillery is positioned at the edge and outside of a wood or marsh (BG). It’s corner is contacted by an enemy group. So you conform the Artillery by pivoting even if one of its corners enters the Bad Going? That‘s not the way I‘m playing DBA: The Artillery element doesn‘t conform and has to fight with -1 (overlapped). Your picture above … that‘s not the way I‘m playing DBA: A) It seems, that the two groups consist of 3 elements. Now, if red moves straight forward it contacts the blue group with its middle and right element (already lined up). The left red element contacts the single blue element, which has to conform to it. Or … B) Only the middle and right red elements move to contact the blue group (1 PIP) and the left red element contacts the single blue element (1 PIP) and conforms to it. No element is torn out of a TZ by conforming! Ronald |
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Post by stevie on Feb 9, 2022 1:17:31 GMT
No…I don’t have WWg or Art conforming into Bad Going. I’m the same as you (see, I’m agreeing with you, again!  ).The rules say these cannot move into Bad Going, and I maintain that conforming is a form of moving. So we are both saying the same thing. The difference between us is you seem to want to cherry-pick when conforming is moving, and when it is not. I want to keep things simple, and say that ALL conforming is moving, and therefore conforming must still obey ALL the movement rules, restrictions and limitations. ALL of them…without any invented or made-up exceptions. ========================================================== As for groups slipping out of a Threat Zone…it depends on what you think ‘a group’ is. Take a single element facing two enemy elements, so it is in two Threat Zones. Aligning, Lining-up or Conforming with one enemy makes it leave the other’s TZ. Groups are the same. This is because in DBA a group is not just a loose collection of individual elements. It is something more…it is a giant element…and is stronger than the sum of its parts. That’s why a group dominates and pushes single elements about. ▄▄▄
▌ ▄▄▄
↑The only things that can split a group is combat outcomes, their owner’s choice, or when turning-to-face (and even turning-to-face won’t force a column group to split-up if they are receiving rear support…see Figures 20a & 20e). As much as I have searched the rules, and studied all the diagrams, I cannot find a single example of a group being forced to split-up when conforming. If anyone can find even a single exception to this, then I’ll change my tune. In short, a group is like a giant element, and just as a single element can leave a TZ when it Aligns, Lines-up or Conforms with an adjacent enemy, so can a group. Groups stay together…  |
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Post by ronisan on Feb 9, 2022 16:10:55 GMT
Hello Stevie,
In short, a group is like a giant element, and just as a single element can leave a
TZ when it Aligns, Lines-up or Conforms with an adjacent enemy, so can a group.
Groups stay together…
Ok - conviced for the part of "Groups stay together".
Like spear A in figure 7b, page 18: A single element starting its movement bound in more than one TZ is allowed to choose, which one to ignore!
So – a group starting its movement bound in more than one TZ is also allowed to choose, which one to ignore – and sometimes will be able to leave a TZ by conforming.
Cheers Ronald.
P.S. I'm so envious not being able to upload diagrams ... what's wrong with my account?  |
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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 9, 2022 18:44:46 GMT
Stevie/Ronald:
You have once again proven to be the world's greatest playtesters (well my home grown ones would dispute this but they aren't on this list).
So how much "rule free, movement free" teleporting does forced conforming allow? As players know, I'm a firm believer that the moving Element required to conform should do so as much as possible with the forced conformer only required to finish the conform (can't get consensus from the FAQ committee thought on this vital point).
But back to the "teleport" aspects of forced conforming. Hmmm while I appreciate Stevie's excellent review of the applicable rules (or lack thereof), I think we have once again tried to conceive of what Phil thought about a matter that he has actually not thought. He just never liked to get into such weedy details.
So here's my corollary: an Element that cannot voluntarily contact a foe cannot fully conform and therefore must fight as if Overlapped. (Also applies to Art, WWg and well as the dread "CP" Element.)
Why didn't we catch this in playtest and bring it to Phil's attention and get a "Phil thought" on the matter? Mostly because we are not as smart as we think we are. (In our defense based on my playtest group I thought too much was as yet unresolved and urged with increasing franticness that the US tournament organizers switch over to the well developed beta version of 3.0 for the final year of tournament play to fully test it under tournament conditions. Instead they used 2.2+ a system that not even its designers bother with today.)
Give some feedback please...
TomT
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Post by stevie on Feb 9, 2022 19:21:47 GMT
Ha, ha, ha!…fear not Ronald, you are not being discriminated against.  Too many people were uploading pictures and exceeding the Fanaticus storage space, so the ‘upload picture’ function has been disabled. But you can still upload pictures to another site, then post the link here. I personally use this site: imgbb.com/ which is free. (select ‘direct link’ and not ‘user link’ for you’re picture) And the format for displaying a picture here on Fanaticus is this:- img src="https://i.ibb.co/tzHgwCf/Dalek-Army.jpg" style="max-width:50%;" all enclosed in square brackets, like this [......] ===================================================== And cheers Tom!  If you mean “an Element that cannot voluntarily contact a foe cannot fully conform and therefore must fight as if Overlapped” to be the same as “conforming IS moving, so must still follow all the normal movement rules”…then I’m right behind you. |
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Post by ronisan on Feb 10, 2022 8:06:45 GMT
Hello Tom,
your
So here's my corollary: an Element that cannot voluntarily contact a foe cannot fully conform and therefore must fight as if Overlapped. (Also applies to Art, WWg and well as the dread "CP" Element.)
is a nice rule extension.
Those extremely vulnerable single elements (Art, WWg, CP) will not conform, if being attacked (just edge-to-corner or corner-to-edge but not edge-to-edge!) by an enemy group and must fight „as overlapped“ (-1)!
But if they are part of a group (e.g. supported by an element of Psiloi), the enemy group has to contact and conform and the fighting wouldn‘t be „as overlapped“ (depicting the supporting friendly element)!
Disadvantage to consider:
Wouldn‘t that lead to other „special-if-then-rule extensions“, spoiling the simplicity of DBA?
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by stevie on Feb 10, 2022 8:56:40 GMT
Oh well spotted Ronald! (“Let’s see you get out of that one Stevie” ).I think single ‘Static’ elements (i.e. CP/Lit/CWg/WWg/Art) SHOULD conform… …but if conforming is moving, the rules say these can’t move into contact. Hmmm…perhaps the addition of the following would solve the issue:- “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot make a tactical move into any contact with (an) enemy…” Tactical Moves costs PIPs, and are voluntary. Conforming costs no PIPs, and is compulsory. |
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 10, 2022 9:05:02 GMT
This thread seems to segue into the other current thread on oblique movement. On that thread the FAQ was quoted regarding the need for some front edge (not corner) to contact in order to trigger conforming. If you play the FAQ way then many of these issues seem to disappear. But as discussed on the other thread, you need corner contact to trigger single element conforming otherwise things get gimmicky. May be we need a true DBA solution where edges are required for groups and corners for single elements in the open? This would be similar to the far edge of the TZ counts but not the side edge.
As for WWg and Art being dragged into Bad Going, well, bad luck! Military history is strewn with examples of troops and equipment becoming bogged down, etc. If you put your elements in that position then woe is you.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by stevie on Feb 10, 2022 11:05:38 GMT
As for WWg and Art being dragged into Bad Going, well, bad luck! Military history is strewn with examples of troops and equipment becoming bogged down, etc. If you put your elements in that position then woe is you. Well Jim, it does seem a bit odd that WWg and Art can’t deploy or move into Bad Going off-road when the enemy is miles and hours away, yet they can conform into it in a mere few minutes when in close combat!… …and then find they can never move out of it again! 🤪 In the Software Testing Business we call that an “unintended feature”… …which is just an excuse for not fixing a newly discovered bug! And 'IF' conforming is not moving, what about travelling through Bad Going faster than their normal move speed, and travelling through Bad Goings as a group (something expressly forbidden in the rules unless entirely Psiloi). (If DBA 3.0 is a piece of prematurely released software that still has a few
bugs in it, and the FAQ is a ‘patch’ to try and fix those bugs, then player
invented made-up rules such as "conforming is not really moving" that
don’t appear anywhere in the Great Purple Book are viruses…  ) |
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Post by Baldie on Feb 10, 2022 11:50:44 GMT
The book is perfect all hail the creator.
It is us poor blinkered followers that cant quite see the truth of the words sometimes, I am sure when we make it to the great hall of wargaming Valhalla we will be enlightened during the induction phase.
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 10, 2022 12:02:29 GMT
Regarding the first point, without the stress of imminent attack, the Art/WWg stay away from Bad Going. But in the chaos of battle they make a mistake and end up mired in mud (or whatever). Seems reasonable and quite likely something that humans would have done over the centuries.
Regarding the movement distance, it's the kinked lines that become a problem. Your example above, where the CP would have to move 3BW or more, if it didn't conform, would it fight as if overlapped? If so, how is it fighting close combat almost out of bow range? If combat isn't allowed then are we not fulfilling the basic principle that combat should occur if front edge contact is made?
Cheers
Jim
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)…
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