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Post by timurilank on Mar 20, 2017 9:35:24 GMT
Here are some more Book III errors (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
III/53 East Frankish Army (888 AD – 1106 AD) remove III/72 Anglo-Danish Army (1014 AD – 1075 AD)
(Army III/53 lists III/72 as an enemy, but III/72 doesn’t mention III/53, only III/52.
Looks like another East/West Frank mix-up.)
DBA 2.2 listed the III/72 as Communal Italian who were mutual enemies for both III/51 West Franks and III/52 East Franks. This was overlooked in the editing.
Action:
Remove III/72 from III/53 East Frankish Army (888 AD – 1106 AD).
The Communal Italians were enemies of the Normans and the Empire so maybe should remain as an enemy of III/52 and III/53 ?
You had me scrambling for my army lists, but III/73 ARE the Communal Italians. The action required is to remove III/72 which were the Anglo-Danish touring side. : )
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Post by Haardrada on Mar 20, 2017 9:52:30 GMT
Here are some more Book III errors (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
III/53 East Frankish Army (888 AD – 1106 AD) remove III/72 Anglo-Danish Army (1014 AD – 1075 AD)
(Army III/53 lists III/72 as an enemy, but III/72 doesn’t mention III/53, only III/52.
Looks like another East/West Frank mix-up.)
DBA 2.2 listed the III/72 as Communal Italian who were mutual enemies for both III/51 West Franks and III/52 East Franks. This was overlooked in the editing.
Action:
Remove III/72 from III/53 East Frankish Army (888 AD – 1106 AD).
The Communal Italians were enemies of the Normans and the Empire so maybe should remain as an enemy of III/52 and III/53 ? Pardon my mistake there,the meds have not kicked in yet.lol But the Eastern Franks III/53 should remain as an enemy of III/77 Papal Italian as Henry IV attacked and Beseiged Gregory VII in 1083AD until releived by the Imperial withdrawing when Robert Guiscard marched on Rome in 1084AD. |
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Post by timurilank on Mar 20, 2017 10:50:00 GMT
Here are some more Book III errors (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
III/53 East Frankish Army (888 AD – 1106 AD) add III/77 Papal Italian Army (1049 AD – 1320 AD)
(Army III/77 lists III/53 as an enemy and an ally, but III/53 only lists III/77 as an ally, not as an enemy.)
Henry III or Henry IV (Holy Roman Emperors from 1046 - 1106) may have been at odds with the Pope but not to the point that they took to the field against him. Historically, the HRE needed the Pope’s blessing for military enterprises and therefore should be considered allies and not enemies.
Action:
Suggest removing III/53 East Franks from III/77 Papal Italian Army (1049 AD – 1320 AD) unless anyone else has information that it should remain.
From Haardrada,
‘But the Eastern Franks III/53 should remain as an enemy of III/77 Papal Italian as Henry IV attacked and Beseiged Gregory VII in 1083AD until releived by the Imperial withdrawing when Robert Guiscard marched on Rome in 1084AD.’
That is a close call, the Investiture Controversy (1073 – 1085) between Pope Gregory and Henry IV as I read primary military support came from Matilda of Tuscany (Communal Italian) and Robert Guiscard (Duke of Sicily, 1059 - 1085). Guiscard won no favours with the Pope as he too was excommunicated and on a side note DBA lists the III/77 Papal Italian and IV Sicilian 1072 – 1193 AD as mutual enemies.
Thanks for the note.
It may be best then to leave III/53 and III/77 as mutual enemies.
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Post by Haardrada on Mar 20, 2017 13:27:37 GMT
Here are some more Book III errors (Group #3 on page 5 has been updated):-
III/53 East Frankish Army (888 AD – 1106 AD) add III/77 Papal Italian Army (1049 AD – 1320 AD)
(Army III/77 lists III/53 as an enemy and an ally, but III/53 only lists III/77 as an ally, not as an enemy.)
Henry III or Henry IV (Holy Roman Emperors from 1046 - 1106) may have been at odds with the Pope but not to the point that they took to the field against him. Historically, the HRE needed the Pope’s blessing for military enterprises and therefore should be considered allies and not enemies.
Action:
Suggest removing III/53 East Franks from III/77 Papal Italian Army (1049 AD – 1320 AD) unless anyone else has information that it should remain.
From Haardrada,
‘But the Eastern Franks III/53 should remain as an enemy of III/77 Papal Italian as Henry IV attacked and Beseiged Gregory VII in 1083AD until releived by the Imperial withdrawing when Robert Guiscard marched on Rome in 1084AD.’
That is a close call, the Investiture Controversy (1073 – 1085) between Pope Gregory and Henry IV as I read primary military support came from Matilda of Tuscany (Communal Italian) and Robert Guiscard (Duke of Sicily, 1059 - 1085). Guiscard won no favours with the Pope as he too was excommunicated and on a side note DBA lists the III/77 Papal Italian and IV Sicilian 1072 – 1193 AD as mutual enemies.
Thanks for the note.
It may be best then to leave III/53 and III/77 as mutual enemies.
Pope Gregory VII had vault-faced in his anti-Norman policy in 1080AD and had invested Guiscard in the lands of Ceprano in the same year.... no doubt looking for protection from Imperial invasion having excommunicated Henry IV. |
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Post by stevie on Mar 20, 2017 15:56:50 GMT
The I/14 Early Northern Barbarian Problem
You’ll be please to note that the European Bronze Age armies of I/14a, I/14b, and I/14c are all ok.
However, the Chao, Ch’in, Ch’iang and other Chinese armies of I/14d and II/4 are in a bit of a mess.
I/13b Shang Chinese (1299 BC – 1017 BC) change Ally from I/14a to I/14d Chinese Border Tribes
I/32a Western Chou (1100 BC – 701 BC) change Ally from I/14a to I/14d Chinese Border Tribes
I/32c Other Chinese (700 BC – 480 BC) change Ally from I/14a to I/14d Chinese Border Tribes
(Army I/14a is the early European Bronze Age... last time I checked they were at the other end of the continent!)
I/14d Chinese Border Tribes (2000 BC – 401 BC) change II/4a to II/4b Yueh Chinese Army (480 BC – 333 BC)
II/4b Yueh Chinese Army (480 BC – 333 BC) add I/14d Chinese Border Tribes (2000 BC – 401 BC)
(Armies I/14d and II/4a are listed as mutual enemies, even though the dates are wrong.
I think that I/14d and II/4b should be mutual enemies instead, as their dates do match.
See below for the II/4a Ch’in, who should be the mutual enemies of the I/14e Jung.)
I/14d Chinese Border Tribes (2000 BC – 401 BC) change II/4e to II/4d Other Chinese Armies (480 BC – 356 BC)
(Army I/14d lists II/4e as an enemy, but II/4e doesn’t mention I/14d, and the dates don’t match.
However, army II/4d does list I/14d as an enemy, and the dates do match, but I/14d doesn’t mention II/4d)
I/14e Jung or Ch’iang Army (400 BC – 315 BC) change II/4c to II/4a Ch’in Chinese Army (355 BC -221 BC)
II/4a Ch’in Chinese Army (355 BC – 221 BC) change I/14d to I/14e Jung or Ch’iang Army (400 BC – 315 BC)
II/4c Chao Chinese Army (307 BC – 202 BC) remove I/14e Jung or Ch’iang Army (400 BC – 315 BC)
(Armies I/14e and II/4c are listed as mutual enemies, but the dates don’t match.
The mutual enemy of the I/14e Jung should be II/4a Ch’in, as according to the DBMM army lists the Ch’in finally defeated the western Jung in 315 BC.)
I/32b Wu or Yueh Chinese Army (584 BC – 480 BC) add I/14d Chinese Border Tribes (2000 BC – 401 BC)
(Army I/14d lists I/32b as an enemy, but I/32b doesn’t mention I/14d)
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:47:19 GMT
In addition to the previous post, the following changes will still need to be made:-
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/60a Early Achaemenid Persian (550 BC – 547 BC)
I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC) remove I/60c Early Achaemenid Persian (539 BC – 420 BC)
The Early Bedouin are now covered with two sub-lists, I/6a 3000 BC – 1001 BC and I/6b 1000 BC – 312 BC replacing the three of the older version and a number of incorrect listings were missed. Also renaming two of the sub-lists I/6b (Midianite or Amalekite) and I/6c (Early Aramean) made editing a challenge.
Action.
Remove I/60a and I/60c Early Achaemenid Persian from the I/6a Early Bedouin list.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:48:15 GMT
I/60c Early Achaemenid Persian (539 BC – 420 BC) remove I/6a Early Bedouin (3000 BC – 1001 BC)
(Army I/6a lists both I/60a and I/60c as enemies, but the dates are clearly wrong, and I/60a doesn’t mention I/6a.
I/6a had already evolved into I/6b in 1000 BC, and I/6b is already listed as a mutual enemy of I/60a and I/60c.)
Correct.
Action.
Remove I/6a Early Bedouin from the list of enemies for I/60c Early Achaemenid Persian (539 BC – 420 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:49:08 GMT
I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC)
Clearly an error copying enemy lists from the older version to new.
Action:
Remove I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC) from I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 1101 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:50:01 GMT
I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
(Although I/6c and I/25b are listed as mutual enemies, the dates don’t match.
Army I/6c evolved into I/31ab in 1100 BC, and I/25b and I/31b are already correctly listed as mutual enemies.)
Clearly an error in copying enemy lists from the older version to new. I/6c (old version) were Early Bedouin 999 BC – 312 BC.
Action:
Remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC) from I/25b Early Neo-Assyrians (882 BC – 745 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:51:02 GMT
I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove I/31a Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (1100 BC – 901 BC)
I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove I/31b Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans (900 BC – 710 BC)
I/6c (old version) were Early Bedouin 999 BC – 312 BC. Despite renaming I/6c as Early Aramean editing the old enemy list missed these two.
Action:
Remove both I/31a and I/31b Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramaeans from the I/6c Early Aramean list.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:53:06 GMT
I/31a Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramean (1100 BC – 901 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
I/31b Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramean (900 BC – 710 BC) remove I/6c Early Aramaeans (2000 BC – 1101 BC)
(The dates don’t match as I/6c has evolved into I/31a and I/31b, and these are already listed as internal enemies.)
This is a similar to the previous post; I/6c (old version) were Early Bedouin 999 BC – 312 BC. Despite renaming I/6c as Early Aramean editing the old enemy list missed these two.
Action:
Remove I/6c from both I/31a Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramean and I/31b Early Neo-Hittite/Later Aramean.
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:53:56 GMT
I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC) add II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC)
I/6c (old version) were Early Bedouin 999 BC – 312 BC and the Later Achaemenid Persians were missed in the editing.
Action:
Add II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians to I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:54:48 GMT
I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 1101 BC) remove II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC)
Related to the earlier post, I/6c (old version) were Early Bedouin 999 BC – 312 BC and the Later Achaemenid Persians were not deleted in the editing.
Action:
Remove II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC) from I/6c Early Aramean (2000 BC – 1101 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:55:46 GMT
II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC) change I/6c to I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC)
(Army I/6c had already evolved into I/31ab in 1100 BC, and even these were extinguished by 710 BC.
Army I/6b Early Arabs should be the correct mutual enemy of the II/7 Later Persians.)
Agree, this follows the same pattern of errors encountered earlier.
Action:
Change I/6c to I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC) for II/7 Later Achaemenid Persians (420 BC – 329 BC).
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Post by timurilank on Mar 21, 2017 14:56:34 GMT
I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC) add II/12 Alexander (359 BC – 319 BC)
The Early Bedouin (I/6c) of version 2.2 were mutual enemies with II/12. Same problem encountered earlier.
Action:
Add II/12 Alexander (359 BC – 319 BC) to I/6b Early Arabs (1000 BC – 312 BC).
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