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Post by BrianNZ on Nov 27, 2016 8:46:33 GMT
Fig 13a page 22.
If the Auxilia X had a few friends adjacent and was therefore part of a group,
Would it leave its group and slide sideways to line up with Blade A ?
Would the entire group slide sideways with Auxilia X ?
Also Fig 13e page 23,
If Pikes Y&Z had Pikes V&W adjacent ( behind Spear X ) would all 4 pikes slide sideways to conform to Blades B ?
Thanks
Brian
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 29, 2016 0:58:50 GMT
Fig 13a page 22. If the Auxilia X had a few friends adjacent and was therefore part of a group, Would it leave its group and slide sideways to line up with Blade A ? Would the entire group slide sideways with Auxilia X ? Also Fig 13e page 23, If Pikes Y&Z had Pikes V&W adjacent ( behind Spear X ) would all 4 pikes slide sideways to conform to Blades B ? Thanks Brian In example 1. The owner of Aux decides. Groups are determined by the owner... so either the individual element could slide, or the entire group, or some other combination. In example 2. Again the owner decides. You can move just the contacted pike... the contacted pike and its rear support, or a larger configuration. Does that help? Joe Collins |
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Post by BrianNZ on Nov 29, 2016 18:49:26 GMT
It does indeed Joe, many thanks.
Some of these contact situations are rather confusing at times.
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Post by hodsopa on Dec 5, 2016 22:37:33 GMT
This is a different moving to contact question but I haven't worked out how to start a new thread on the new site so here goes, the heading is still valid.
We know that if a column is hard flanked the element(s) to the rear don't react, and die if the front one (the one also contacted to its front) does. What if the rear element of a column of two, ZOCd and contemplating this horrible fate, moves back a little to create a gap between itself and the front element? The gap is small, so that a unit flanking the front element still also hits the flank of the rear element. Is that still legal? Does the rear element still not react? Does it still die if the front one does?
What I would say based on my limited understanding of this part of the rules is that in this situation it is not legal to flank the front element. But I am not sure what else I think. Advice welcome!
Paul H
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Post by lkmjbc on Dec 5, 2016 23:36:46 GMT
This is a different moving to contact question but I haven't worked out how to start a new thread on the new site so here goes, the heading is still valid. We know that if a column is hard flanked the element(s) to the rear don't react, and die if the front one (the one also contacted to its front) does. What if the rear element of a column of two, ZOCd and contemplating this horrible fate, moves back a little to create a gap between itself and the front element? The gap is small, so that a unit flanking the front element still also hits the flank of the rear element. Is that still legal? Does the rear element still not react? Does it still die if the front one does? What I would say based on my limited understanding of this part of the rules is that in this situation it is not legal to flank the front element. But I am not sure what else I think. Advice welcome! Paul H This is an example of incidental contact. We eliminated most of it in DBA 3. The move is legal. You cannot protect the flank of a front element this way. If the front element is beaten, then it dies. The second element doesn't react. The 2nd element isn't destroyed as it has no adverse combat result. However, there is more.... "The general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat." and "Elements contacted this bound by enemy or whose front edge is still in contact when combat ends automatically conform if necessary." So, the elements should conform. The second element has be contacted this bound by the enemy. It is still in contact after combat. I would argue that it conforms by turning to face. Combat will occur next bound. Joe Collins |
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Post by BrianNZ on Dec 8, 2016 18:30:49 GMT
Diagram 12a Conforming: page 21
A situation arose at our Club yesterday when a group contacted the corner of another group as in diagram 1, LH A1 contacting Bw X.
Imagine LH A1 being two elements wide ( one element on its right ) and Bw X three elements wide.( two elements on its right )
Would the LH group conform as depicted in the diagrams 2 & 3 ?
i.e. Diagram 3 would show LH A3 grouped with another LH on its right overlapping the Bw X, and Bw X grouped with two Bw overlapping LH A3.
Hope this makes sense
Thanks
Brian
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Post by lkmjbc on Dec 8, 2016 22:14:15 GMT
Diagram 12a Conforming: page 21A situation arose at our Club yesterday when a group contacted the corner of another group as in diagram 1, LH A1 contacting Bw X. Imagine LH A1 being two elements wide ( one element on its right ) and Bw X three elements wide.( two elements on its right ) Would the LH group conform as depicted in the diagrams 2 & 3 ?
i.e. Diagram 3 would show LH A3 grouped with another LH on its right overlapping the Bw X, and Bw X grouped with two Bw overlapping LH A3. Hope this makes sense Thanks Brian In this case no. The LH group must stop short. The problem here is that the LH can't wheel backward. That would be required for the contact to happen. Instead the LH would have to wheel to be parallel before contact... then they could slide. Joe Collins |
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Post by BrianNZ on Dec 9, 2016 4:22:02 GMT
Thanks Joe.
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Post by righteousaussiegamer on Jan 15, 2017 4:48:16 GMT
Hi guys, As this was such a good post... I thought I'd add my question here (which probably won't be a great post, but it troubles me). My question concerns figure 13d. Which I note know one seems to have a problem with (not that I've found any way). 1). The diagram itself doesn't look (to me) possible that ABC can actually move like that as a group using wheels (not the questions btw). 2). a) What if Blade W didn't exist. How would the contact change? b) and for that matter if Blade W and Z didn't exist. 3). a) If blade group XW didn't exist. would ABC have to conform to YZ? b) and what if A didn't have the move for that? 4). Lastly if ABC moved directly forward into contact and A's front corner hit X while B's Front edge just hit Y, how would that differ. I may just be showing my complete lack of understanding of the contact rules. perplexed, Alex. Ps: If there is such a post I'd love to be directed to it, thanks  |
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Post by stevie on Jan 15, 2017 14:20:35 GMT
Here is how I understand it:-
1st Question: “What if (in diagram 13d) Blade W and/or Blade Z were not present?”
Answer: Single elements must conform when contacted by a moving group, and this happens the instant contact is made (see page 9 paragraph 10).
2nd Question: “What if Blade group XW were not present?”
Answer: When a moving group contacts a stationary group, the moving group must instantly try to conform. But contact is only legal if at least one element of the conforming group ends that bound in full front edge contact. If a lack of movement prevents this, as in diagram 10, then the move cannot happen (see page 9 paragraph 9).
Thus Spear group ABC cannot conform, because although the group may have enough movement, Spear C would have to move backwards, and that is not allowed (see page 8 paragraph 10), so the move cannot happen.
On the other hand, the owner of the Spear group could decide to split it and just move Spears AB as a group, and, if it has the movement, wheel to conform to the front of Blade Y to make legal contact.
In this case Spear C, as it is no longer part of the same group, would have to pay an extra PIP to move forward on its own to get into an overlap position.
3rd Question: “What if Spear group ABC just makes contact with Blades X & Y’s front corner?”
Answer: This is as described in diagram 13d...the Spear group should conform to make full front edge contact, but cannot, so the Blade columns must either conform instead or can choose to stay as they are and fight as if overlapped (again see page 9 paragraph 10).
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Fab
Munifex
Posts: 12 
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Post by Fab on Jan 15, 2017 17:51:13 GMT
About the answer to the second question :
if group XW were not present the group ABC could continue to wheel until B legally contacts Y (front to front). Looking at the diagram this seems possible to me if the Spear group had enough movement left.
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Post by righteousaussiegamer on Jan 16, 2017 1:28:14 GMT
Ok, pretty much what I thought.
"1st Question: “What if (in diagram 13d) Blade W and/or Blade Z were not present?”
Answer: Single elements must conform when contacted by a moving group, and this happens the instant contact is made (see page 9 paragraph 10)."
1. Ok, so let's say Blade W is missing and Blade X has to conform as it is a single element. There is not enough space (geometry) for it to conform? so what happens?
2. Also agree with what 'Fab' says that ABC could as a group contact the group YZ if XW didn't exist (I'm slightly concerned that they have to).
3. Ok, so another question... if YZ was angled the other direction (parallel but not a group with XW, possibly this doesn't matter). How would the contact work. would ABC be required to conform to the front of YZ because it can, or because it also contacts XW it is exempt from having to conform to YZ? Once again. what happens if W doesn't exist? (and X has to conform but cannot due to space and A cannot if it moves as part of the group).
4. Also.. 13d says "the blade group must conform to A and B or fight blah blah overlapped". Does this mean they must 'both' conform... or 'either may' conform (XW may not conform unless YZ does, for instance, but it seems plausible that YZ could choose to conform and XW would not) is that an option?
thanks guys.. keep the answers coming please.
Alex.
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Post by stevie on Jan 16, 2017 2:50:05 GMT
1. Ok, so let's say Blade W is missing and Blade X has to conform as it is a single element. There is not enough space (geometry) for it to conform? so what happens? 2. Also agree with what 'Fab' says that ABC could as a group contact the group YZ if XW didn't exist (I'm slightly concerned that they have to). 3. Ok, so another question... if YZ was angled the other direction (parallel but not a group with XW, possibly this doesn't matter). How would the contact work. would ABC be required to conform to the front of YZ because it can, or because it also contacts XW it is exempt from having to conform to YZ? Once again. what happens if W doesn't exist? (and X has to conform but cannot due to space and A cannot if it moves as part of the group). 4. Also.. 13d says "the blade group must conform to A and B or fight blah blah overlapped". Does this mean they must 'both' conform... or 'either may' conform (XW may not conform unless YZ does, for instance, but it seems plausible that YZ could choose to conform and XW would not) is that an option? thanks guys.. keep the answers coming please. Alex. Answer to new question 1:
The Blade must conform or fight as if overlapped (as mentioned in diagram 13d).
Answer to new question 2:
Ah, but originally you said “what if Spear group ABC moved directly forward into contact.”
What Fab is saying is Spear group ABC could first wheel to align, THEN move into contact.
Answer to new question 3:
“At the end of the bound’s movement phase, the contacting element, or at least one element of a contacting group, must be lined-up with an enemy element” (page 9 paragraph 9).
“A single element or group contacting a group conforms to that group. A single element contacted by a group conforms to it unless itself entirely in rough/bad going“ (page 9 paragraph 10).
“If conforming to a front edge by contactors is prevented by spacing between enemy or physically blocked by elements, terrain or a table edge; contacted elements or groups must either conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped” (page 9 paragraph 10).
If Spear group ABC cannot align, those contacted must, or fight as if overlapped (as mentioned in diagram 13d).
Answer to new question 4:
The Blades must conform OR fight as if overlapped. Each Blade must individually choose one or the other (as mentioned in diagram 13d).
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Post by righteousaussiegamer on Jan 16, 2017 6:56:48 GMT
hmmm,
Specifically, my secondary Question 3. (i'm going to have to come up with better naming conventions).
"if YZ was angled the other direction (so that the are parallel to XW, but probably not so it could all be a group). How does the contact work?
a) does group ABC have to conform to YZ even though their move contacted both YZ and XW? *(I would guess: yes).
b) if there was another element blocking ABC's (see question a) conform with YZ (such as C moving before hand toward but not into contact with YZ) when group AB moves into contact with both YZ and XW, does that force groups YZ and XW to conform or suffer overlap? *(I would guess: yes)
(I understand that at the end of the phase it must be so (except it doesn't have to be apparently if the defender wishes it, which to me is not exactly a must). And the first line of Moving into contact with enemy p9... seems to be ignored (Phil doesn't seem to be flippant when choosing his words... so it strikes me as strange he would write something that people seem to constantly not mention as some light introductory pre-amble). I have read these passages too many times now, and have failed too many SAN checks not to get a Mythos point.)
and on another note:
c) the last line of fig.13d "Note that Spear C also overlaps Blade Y and so Y will be overlapped on both flanks": Does this mean the combat is treated as if all elements where comformed in place? (As C isn't in left-to-left or right-to-right corner contact, nor mutual flank edge contact with Bd Y unless that where true).
any way how about these? Still confused (if you can't tell).
Alex.
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Post by stevie on Jan 16, 2017 11:10:19 GMT
Answers:-
a) Yep
b) Yep
c) Yep
You are not the only person to be confused by the moving into contact and conforming rules.
They used to (and sometimes still do!) confuse the hell out of me as well.
The diagrams do help, but the diagram dialog is just a quick reminder of what is going on, so can be a bit brief.
And sometimes they leave out important snippets of information that would help to clarify the situation.
You have to also follow what’s actually written in the rules, sometimes in several places, to get the full picture.
In my rule book I’ve added some extra notes to some of the diagram dialogs (a bit naughty of me, but if it helps understanding, then so be it). Perhaps these extra notes could help answer some of your questions.
When can you choose to conform or not?:-
See diagram 13a. I have underlined the words “if preferred”.
See diagram 13e. I have underlined the words “can choose”.
See diagram 13b. In this diagram, what happens if the moving cavalry group couldn’t slide due to a lack of space?
Under these diagram dialogs I’ve added “If the moving elements can’t conform, those contacted can choose”.
Does a conforming group stay together?:-
Diagrams 12c, 12d, 13b, 13c, and 13d all show conforming groups staying together and not splitting up.
So below these diagrams I’ve added “Conforming does not split a group, unless their owner wants to”.
(See the “An Unwritten Rule – Splitting a Group?” thread for full details.)
Contacts that are not allowed?:-
Page 9 paragraph 9 describes all the legal contact positions (basically, corner-to-corner contact).
See diagram 10. This shows examples of illegal contacts. But why are they illegal?
Below this diagram I have written “Because of a lack of speed, they couldn’t make proper contact”.
Don’t diagrams 13c and 13d conflict with diagram 10?:-
After all, these two pictures show legal contacts that diagram 10 says are illegal.
Below diagrams 13c and 13d I’ve added “Although the moving group has enough speed to conform, it is physically prevented”.
I don’t know if it will help, but I have compiled a set of ‘Detailed Crib Sheets for DBA 3.0’ which can be found here:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
Look for the grass green movement section containing these items:-
• Who Conforms
• When Conforming Occurs
• Conforming Positions
• If Conforming Prevented
It might be of some use. 
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