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Post by aelbert on Dec 13, 2023 11:13:08 GMT
Hi, is there any evindence that pike were actually better then spear?
I can't recall an incident where a pike unit beat a Hoplite unit on its OWN.
I use HOTT a lot and also for Hellenistic battles, pike are just spear and that works fine.
Using DBA you could even make Silvershields/Hypaspists a double spear element a la Thebans.
Cheers B
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Post by skb777 on Dec 13, 2023 11:26:31 GMT
Hi, is there any evindence that pike were actually better then spear? I can't recall an incident where a pike unit beat a Hoplite unit on its OWN. I use HOTT a lot and also for Hellenistic battles, pike are just spear and that works fine. Using DBA you could even make Silvershields/Hypaspists a double spear element a la Thebans. Cheers B How much evidence is they that they ever fought them on a level playing field? And why did the Greek states changed from Hoplite to a pike phalanx if they were no better?
Anyway, that aside it raises an interesting point why should a pike phalanx have to be two deep to be effective and yet a hoplite phalanx doesn't? Surely a pike phalanx can fight 8 ranks deep effectively if spear can? One thing that has always irked me is lumping all spear classes together all blade together and all pike. Surely the Greek Hoplite, Roman Legionary, Macedonian Phalanx or even the the Persian or Indians that had a unique close order units of archers protected by shield-bearers should all stand apart from say a Saxon Shieldwall etc. Why should the Roman Legionary, arguably the most efficient killing machine throughout it's time (the Roman Army had a 70% win rate throughout it's whole history) be lumped in with every other 4 Bd? Also it is the quality of the troop that makes the difference, but that isn't the DBA brief. Anyways up that is just me musing and it wil be what it will be.
But back to the pike problem, I suggest maybe shortening the command and control of a general and his effective use of pip. That way if you string your troops out in a long line his C&C can't reach those on the end.
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Post by aelbert on Dec 13, 2023 14:54:21 GMT
How much evidence is they that they ever fought them on a level playing field? And why did the Greek states changed from Hoplite to a pike phalanx if they were no better?
Well, they shifted from citizen soldiers with their own assets to farmers and mercenaries. So less expencive equipment replaced by a cheaper pike to negate that loss in defensive quality. Cheers, B1 |
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Post by jim1973 on Dec 13, 2023 23:57:10 GMT
Hi, is there any evindence that pike were actually better then spear? I can't recall an incident where a pike unit beat a Hoplite unit on its OWN. I use HOTT a lot and also for Hellenistic battles, pike are just spear and that works fine. Using DBA you could even make Silvershields/Hypaspists a double spear element a la Thebans. Cheers B Certainly Bardunias and Ray agree with you ( Hoplites at War ). They are not the main stream. But they do make very good points though, that are worth discussing. I also agree with you regarding the economics of equipping a pikeman as opposed to a hoplite may have helped them flourish. I also think it may have been easier to train the men (two-handed pike v shield and spear). This would be help explain how Phillip managed to get a heavy infantry army in a relatively short period of time without a history of hoplites. Finally, I think 16 deep may have been a solution to provide staying power, particulalry for a new model army with a good population. But they are just opinions! Cheers Jim |
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Post by snowcat on Dec 14, 2023 10:19:56 GMT
Perhaps the book 'The Macedonian Phalanx - Equipment, Organization & Tactics from Philip & Alexander to the Roman Conquest' by Richard Taylor might shed some light.
(Only mentioning it because I just received an ad from Naval & Military Press about it.)
Cheers.
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Post by skb777 on Dec 14, 2023 12:08:09 GMT
Perhaps the book 'The Macedonian Phalanx - Equipment, Organization & Tactics from Philip & Alexander to the Roman Conquest' by Richard Taylor might shed some light. (Only mentioning it because I just received an ad from Naval & Military Press about it.) Cheers. That sounds like an excellent read and could shed some light, as I don't really see how a 16 foot pike is cheaper than an 8 foot spear or that a pike phalanx is easier to train than a hoplite one. It is the armour that is expensive and there are doubt about how many hoplites actually had or used metal body armour - after all Xenophon could only rustle up 50 out of 10,000 to redistribute to his cav |
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Post by aelbert on Dec 14, 2023 13:04:29 GMT
Oh, giving somebody a long stick and tell him to hold it in two hands pointing forward and walking towards something is quite differt then fencing with a shield and spear.
Even linnen armour was quite expencive it seems.
Philips Macedonians only had Pilos, small shield and graves for the front rank.
Cheers B
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Post by skb777 on Dec 14, 2023 13:31:07 GMT
Oh, giving somebody a long stick and tell him to hold it in two hands pointing forward and walking towards something is quite differt then fencing with a shield and spear. Even linnen armour was quite expencive it seems. Philips Macedonians only had Pilos, small shield and graves for the front rank. Cheers B Giving someone a long spear and saying hide behind your big shield and just poke over the top can't be that hard as they were only part time soldiers after all. Front rankers probably had armour and those in the rear didn't, which is pretty much the same for hoplites.
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Post by aelbert on Dec 14, 2023 15:41:43 GMT
Yep part time soldiers maybe, but did you see their gyms? Were they spend most of their time  . Look at those Greek statues, a bit different than our obese society |
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Post by Les1964 on Dec 14, 2023 17:11:29 GMT
Yep part time soldiers maybe, but did you see their gyms? Look at those Greek statues, a bit different than our obese society That's because they didn't have Facebook or online forums . |
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Post by skb777 on Dec 14, 2023 17:21:43 GMT
Yep part time soldiers maybe, but did you see their gyms? Look at those Greek statues, a bit different than our obese society That's because they didn't have Facebook or online forums . Maybe they just didn’t sculpt the fatties 🤷♂️ |
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Post by paulisper on Dec 14, 2023 17:23:46 GMT
Yep part time soldiers maybe, but did you see their gyms? Were they spend most of their time . Look at those Greek statues, a bit different than our obese society Just as every modern man doesn’t look like Chris Hemsworth, I doubt every Ancient Greek was an Adonis… 😂 P |
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Post by skb777 on Dec 14, 2023 17:37:46 GMT
Speak for yourself Paul
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Post by jim1973 on Dec 16, 2023 1:59:45 GMT
Oh, giving somebody a long stick and tell him to hold it in two hands pointing forward and walking towards something is quite differt then fencing with a shield and spear. Even linnen armour was quite expencive it seems. Philips Macedonians only had Pilos, small shield and graves for the front rank. Cheers B Giving someone a long spear and saying hide behind your big shield and just poke over the top can't be that hard as they were only part time soldiers after all. Front rankers probably had armour and those in the rear didn't, which is pretty much the same for hoplites.
I think reservists is a better description for hoplites, particularly from the Peloponnesian War and onwards . Large cities, like Athens, had compulsory service for their youth before they graduated to join the phalalnx (epheboi and peripoloi). Smaller cities may have kept to more traditional methods such as the Pyrrhike dances. The rise of mercenaries and war as a profession would add to the cadre of veterans needed to provide some instruction. Iphicratian-styled mercenaries may have been used by Phillip to start the transformation of his army. And of course, we have the Spartans. Cheers Jim |
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Post by jim1973 on Dec 16, 2023 2:01:43 GMT
Perhaps the book 'The Macedonian Phalanx - Equipment, Organization & Tactics from Philip & Alexander to the Roman Conquest' by Richard Taylor might shed some light. (Only mentioning it because I just received an ad from Naval & Military Press about it.) Cheers. Thanks for this! I see the author has a book on the Greek Phalalnx as well. I find it very useful when authors have studied multiple topics so they are well informed to compare and contrast. Have to add these to to Santa's list! Jim |
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