Post by medievalthomas on Nov 7, 2023 22:08:05 GMT
Pikes:
As I’m sure the knowledgeable Fanaticus audience knows, Pikes have been as issue in DBA since its inception.
Since we are in system solutions mode at the moment, I think discussing our latest playtest is in order.
First to summarize (and maybe repeat the obvious) Pikes have to be double ranked to function and this shortens the line leading to Overlaps and Hard Flanks. The simplest example is 12 Blades v. 12 Pike is an easy win for the Blades despite the quite even back and forth battles between these types in antiquity. Its where we get the concept of Pyrrhic victory. So its bad history and worse game balance.
So DBF solutions proposed so far.
Easiest: Points Pikes cost 4 per Element and Blades 6 so a double frontage of Pikes is 8 points v. 6 points so not so unbalanced as to open flanks (still not good…)
Push of Pikes: Pikes Recoils non Pikes on Equals (we call this Drive Off). I had reservations about this as I envision Equals as a continuing melee to the benefit of Roman short swords. But we tried in the Concept Game and I was slowly won over. So into DBF it went.
Pursuit: But one of the “problems” with Pike is that they Pursue into double Overlaps. Won’t this be worse if they barge forward on Equals? So we considered making Pike Pursuit optional.
So how do we find out what works? Playtest of course and not in our minds on the table.
So we did a classic Medieval Match up out of our Mythic Europe armies: Scottish Pike v. English Blade/Warbow. 32 Pikes v. 12 Blades & 12 Warbow (+3 v. Foot). Both armies also had some filler (Scottish Highland Warband and crap Bow; English Welsh Spear allies). But the big (and decisive) fight was the mass of Scottish Pike bearing down on the intermixed Blade/Warbow.
This was Big Battle (200 points both sides 3 Commands).
Result was a Scottish win with no Broken Commands. But it was actually a close ferocious battle with the Scotts near breaking and only luck saving a Hard Flanked Pike block. Historically this match up occurred several times with blow out English victories mostly from shooting.
That said the battle looked like and at time played like an historical encounter. The Scotts outnumbered the English (as they did historically) but took dreadful losses from shooting coming in. But commanded by two experienced players who just keep feeding the Pike PIPs they keep coming and smashed the Warbow on contact (+6 v. +3). English Blades were islands of resistance and reserve Blades managed to exploit the gaps created by the earlier shooting to Hard Flank their opponents betrayed only by the cruel bouncing cubes.
So we didn’t get historical results but we came close (another factor was Robert the Bruce as a Scottish Hero dancing in front of English archers who could hardly do him any harms but absorbed lots of the their shooting – this is an issue left over from HOTT Heroes – which we borrowed – and not directly linked to Pike).
Lessons learned:
I don’t think the Pike need both Push of Pikes and optional Pursuit in DBF but may need them both in the 12 Element game which needs more special rules to balance each Element type. In DBF we can use more organic solutions so reduce complexity. Players paused and discussed each optional Pursuit which slowed down the game (though we still finished in 2 hours with 4 battle hardened playtesters).
At least twice in the game the Push of Pikes broke ties and resulted in the destruction of Hard Flanked English Elements. If we keep one of the two concepts I’m leaning strongly toward Push of Pikes.
Warbow essential. All agreed that the +2 Bow in the 12 Element game would not have worked at all. Even at +3 the Warbow could not match the historical results. +2 v. Foot would have been ludicrous – really no reason to even play out the battle.
Fun. Gosh was this game fun....
Playtesting. As always more needed. Next up is more of a pure Blade v. Pike battle for which we are scourging troops…
As I’m sure the knowledgeable Fanaticus audience knows, Pikes have been as issue in DBA since its inception.
Since we are in system solutions mode at the moment, I think discussing our latest playtest is in order.
First to summarize (and maybe repeat the obvious) Pikes have to be double ranked to function and this shortens the line leading to Overlaps and Hard Flanks. The simplest example is 12 Blades v. 12 Pike is an easy win for the Blades despite the quite even back and forth battles between these types in antiquity. Its where we get the concept of Pyrrhic victory. So its bad history and worse game balance.
So DBF solutions proposed so far.
Easiest: Points Pikes cost 4 per Element and Blades 6 so a double frontage of Pikes is 8 points v. 6 points so not so unbalanced as to open flanks (still not good…)
Push of Pikes: Pikes Recoils non Pikes on Equals (we call this Drive Off). I had reservations about this as I envision Equals as a continuing melee to the benefit of Roman short swords. But we tried in the Concept Game and I was slowly won over. So into DBF it went.
Pursuit: But one of the “problems” with Pike is that they Pursue into double Overlaps. Won’t this be worse if they barge forward on Equals? So we considered making Pike Pursuit optional.
So how do we find out what works? Playtest of course and not in our minds on the table.
So we did a classic Medieval Match up out of our Mythic Europe armies: Scottish Pike v. English Blade/Warbow. 32 Pikes v. 12 Blades & 12 Warbow (+3 v. Foot). Both armies also had some filler (Scottish Highland Warband and crap Bow; English Welsh Spear allies). But the big (and decisive) fight was the mass of Scottish Pike bearing down on the intermixed Blade/Warbow.
This was Big Battle (200 points both sides 3 Commands).
Result was a Scottish win with no Broken Commands. But it was actually a close ferocious battle with the Scotts near breaking and only luck saving a Hard Flanked Pike block. Historically this match up occurred several times with blow out English victories mostly from shooting.
That said the battle looked like and at time played like an historical encounter. The Scotts outnumbered the English (as they did historically) but took dreadful losses from shooting coming in. But commanded by two experienced players who just keep feeding the Pike PIPs they keep coming and smashed the Warbow on contact (+6 v. +3). English Blades were islands of resistance and reserve Blades managed to exploit the gaps created by the earlier shooting to Hard Flank their opponents betrayed only by the cruel bouncing cubes.
So we didn’t get historical results but we came close (another factor was Robert the Bruce as a Scottish Hero dancing in front of English archers who could hardly do him any harms but absorbed lots of the their shooting – this is an issue left over from HOTT Heroes – which we borrowed – and not directly linked to Pike).
Lessons learned:
I don’t think the Pike need both Push of Pikes and optional Pursuit in DBF but may need them both in the 12 Element game which needs more special rules to balance each Element type. In DBF we can use more organic solutions so reduce complexity. Players paused and discussed each optional Pursuit which slowed down the game (though we still finished in 2 hours with 4 battle hardened playtesters).
At least twice in the game the Push of Pikes broke ties and resulted in the destruction of Hard Flanked English Elements. If we keep one of the two concepts I’m leaning strongly toward Push of Pikes.
Warbow essential. All agreed that the +2 Bow in the 12 Element game would not have worked at all. Even at +3 the Warbow could not match the historical results. +2 v. Foot would have been ludicrous – really no reason to even play out the battle.
Fun. Gosh was this game fun....
Playtesting. As always more needed. Next up is more of a pure Blade v. Pike battle for which we are scourging troops…
