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Post by Antoine on Sept 23, 2017 17:19:18 GMT
Most of this discussion has been about armies with a majority mass of Wb, but what about armies with only 1-2 Wb? Where and how do they fit in?Or do players opt for alternative elements if there is a choice? I have never opted to include wb in my armies purely because they are week against mounted.I have considered building Wb armies but have been put off by this weakness. Later carthaginians have the choice between 4Wb and 4Ax for two of their stands. I tend to choose 2x 4Wb instead of Ax: in a column they can occupy and easily move in RG or BG (like the 4Ax) but their QK on blades/spears/pikes is quite nice against most classical armies. For my Later macedonians who have the choice between 4Wb, 4Ax and Ps, well, it depends on the ennemy and terrain. but again I tend to favor the 4Wb above the 4Ax. IMHO, Auxiliaries are worth their salt in their fast version, not as solid troops. I'd have prefered for Later carthaginians to have Fast Wb & Ax options instead of their solid versions. But they'd be hard to match I reckon  |
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Post by goragrad on Sept 23, 2017 18:00:49 GMT
A number of the Chinese armies have a one or two WB option. I have some tribesmen in the queue primed, but haven't decided on palette and finished them yet.
Will be giving them a run when I get some other figures finished.
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Post by Antoine on Sept 25, 2017 21:22:06 GMT
I mostly play Ancients and mostly the punic war era. I enjoy playing the reliable Romans Blades, the polyvalent Carthaginians and macedonian phalangites. But the more I play, the more I love playing my Gauls ! I'm even gonna build a new gaulish army based on the Essex naked fanatics minis  Warbands, and especially 3Wb are one of my favoured troop type: a lot of QKs, very manœuvrable and with Gauls, you can support them with a lot of cavalry ! |
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Post by Vic on Aug 22, 2018 8:26:10 GMT
Antoine,
Out of curiosity, how have the Gallic (3Wb) played against the Celtiberians (3Bd)? For a related data point, with my partner we've played a couple of Maori (IV/12e) vs. Fijian, Tongan or Samoan (IV/12a) which is another 3Bd vs 3Wb match. It is fairly unmerciful however because the Maori have nothing but 3Bd, and are further disadvantaged in bad terrain, so they can't protect themselves from the Tongan 9 elements of 3Wb and their quick kill. The Tongans have a good breakthrough 3Bd General that can give critical overlaps to produce a ripple of kills, and a couple of Ps that are untouchable by 3Bd unless flanked to pin or block any Maori attempts at manoeuvering. We found that the Maori's only hope is good enough combat rolls to disorder the 3Wb charge line and double them one by one with the aid of overlaps, but it's nothing to bet on. |
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Post by martin on Aug 22, 2018 9:12:07 GMT
Vic
Don’t have my rules to hand, but seem to recall the Maori are ‘littoral’ (?). Are you utilising the littoral landing option to create a little chaos in the enemy ranks at all? Or has it been used and found counterproductive?
Martin
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Post by Vic on Aug 23, 2018 21:00:11 GMT
They are indeed littoral - and yeah, it's given me a fair amount of headaches against other armies (we've only tested the Maori vs Tongan pairing a couple of times). But since they have Aggression 0, they are usually the defender against my other armies, and I don't find the ability to do a landing as useful when deploying first - since it's easier for the invader to counter it.
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 6, 2018 7:47:37 GMT
Just for clarification in combat outcomes on page 11 when it states for Spears,Pikes or Blades that score less than their opponnents but are not doubled are...Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going or by Warband.if not recoil...does this mean they are destroyed by Warband in any terrain or recoil in bad/rough going,but destroyed in good going?
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Post by martin on Oct 6, 2018 9:46:23 GMT
Just for clarification in combat outcomes on page 11 when it states for Spears,Pikes or Blades that score less than their opponnents but are not doubled are...Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going or by Warband.if not recoil...does this mean they are destroyed by Warband in any terrain or recoil in bad/rough going,but destroyed in good going? Sp, Pk and Bd are destroyed if beaten by warbands, wherever and whenever. Any terrain. Sp, Pk and Bd are slightly safer, as they survive being (only) beaten, (and not doubled) if the Sp, Pk or Bd has any part of its base in rough or bad going. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 6, 2018 10:00:43 GMT
Just for clarification in combat outcomes on page 11 when it states for Spears,Pikes or Blades that score less than their opponnents but are not doubled are...Destroyed by Knights or Scythed Chariots if in good going or by Warband.if not recoil...does this mean they are destroyed by Warband in any terrain or recoil in bad/rough going,but destroyed in good going? Sp, Pk and Bd are destroyed if beaten by warbands, wherever and whenever. Any terrain. Sp, Pk and Bd are slightly safer, as they survive being (only) beaten, (and not doubled) if the Sp, Pk or Bd has any part of its base in rough or bad going. But if the Sp/Pk/Bd are partly in bad going, they suffer a -2 penalty which increases the chance of their mounted opponents doubling them. (And the Pk can't claim rear support either.) |
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 6, 2018 10:20:53 GMT
Thanks Martin thats what I thought...I was reading some combat odds which gave a percentage chance of Bd,Sp and Pk recoiling vs Wb,which I only thought happens on a draw for fast Bd and Pk vs Solid Wb.
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Post by stevie on Oct 6, 2018 11:54:44 GMT
I would just like to emphasize what Martin posted. The Combat Outcomes on page 11 say:- “If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half: Spears, Pikes, or Blades Destroyed by Knights and Scythed Chariots if in good going or by Warband. If not, recoil.” Note that Warbands are mentioned after the words “good going”, and not before, so the good going limitation does not apply. In other words, Spears, Pikes, and Blades never recoil from Warbands if they score less...they are always destroyed, no matter the terrain. (Well...almost never...they do recoil if they are attacking a Wb flank and their friends actually doing the dicing are beaten.
And if they score equal, fast Pk/Bd will recoil from solid Wb...but that's only if they score equal)Indeed, were it otherwise, then Spears, Pikes, and Blades would be encouraged to deliberately seek out rough or bad going terrain in order to avoid being ‘quick-killed’ by Warbands...which would be the exact opposite of their behaviour in reality (“keep out if Warbands are about!”). The battle of Mons Graupius in 84 AD is a fine example of this. The Caledonian Warbands were deployed on a difficult hill, so Agricola kept his legionaries in reserve and sent his Imperial Auxilia forwards. (Proving that the Roman Auxilia did not fight the same as the legionaries...they were lighter, more flexible, and better adapted to fighting in such harsh terrain than the heavy legionaries were)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by martin on Oct 6, 2018 16:17:18 GMT
Sp, Pk and Bd are destroyed if beaten by warbands, wherever and whenever. Any terrain. Sp, Pk and Bd are slightly safer, as they survive being (only) beaten, (and not doubled) if the Sp, Pk or Bd has any part of its base in rough or bad going. But if the Sp/Pk/Bd are partly in bad going, they suffer a -2 penalty which increases the chance of their mounted opponents doubling them. (And the Pk can't claim rear support either.) Indeed, Denis - I was only answering the 'warband vs Sp/Pk/Bd' part of the query. As you most rightly state, those types in BG run a strong risk of being doubled. I always love the Bd vs Kn in bad going dice fest. Factors +1 vs +1...and all down to Lady Luck thereafter. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 6, 2018 16:35:59 GMT
Actually Martin (being the pedantic sod that I am), Bd has the advantage when fighting Kn in bad going. Both have 6 chances out of 36 of being doubled...but they also have 6 chances out of 36 of getting an equal score. And when Kn get an equal score against Bd, they’re brown bread. So that’s 12 chances out of 36 of the Kn being destroyed, but only 6 chances out of 36 for the Bd. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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eg407
Beneficiarii
Posts: 92
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Post by eg407 on Nov 22, 2018 11:07:15 GMT
I know it is a little late to the party, but I won a weekend competition here in N.Germany with the Gauls in 2017. I took the maximum number of 3Wb (including the dismounted Gen) and used the extra movement to run around the flanks of the more static Romans.I used the few Cav I had to skirmish with the Roman Cav and keep them off my Wb! We were playing with 25mm on slightly oversized tables, so a little more room to maneuver than might be found on 24'x24'. The one time I attempted a frontal charge it was a total disaster and I lost very quickly! |
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Post by primuspilus on Nov 22, 2018 20:51:09 GMT
But here's the thing: you only need ONE of the +4 (double ranked Wb) to beat ONE of the +5's (Bd) to punch a hole in the Roman centre, and start all manner of unpleasantness ... Once you are +4 vs +4 (overlaps) the Bd line can start to crumble. And if you are Wb and you recoil from the Bd, they pursue into potential Double overlaps! - the counterattacks can be +3 or +4 for the Wb vs +3 for the Bd. Ouch!
You DO need a double line of Bd after all.
Personally I love 3Wb for the sheer speed and ferocity of the 3BW move frontal charge - sprint full-speed straight down the centre and SMASH the Romans in the chops before they have any time to explore their Art of Warfare. If that doesn't make your Roman opponent's skin crawl ... then it's on too tight!
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