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Post by kaiphranos on May 22, 2023 15:24:59 GMT
If HA can shoot at a range, then why would anybody want to use ordinary javelin armed LH? Presumably because their army list doesn't give them a choice. How many armies historically opted for javelins over bows when both were available? (There's some effective obsolescence under current rules as well - why would you use LCh when you could have Cv - same combat factors but more maneuverable?) |
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Post by vodnik on May 22, 2023 16:35:37 GMT
Snowcat@: I think the separation of LH into archers and javelin throwers is firstly historical and also nationally. For example Berbers or Moors, also almost all West Germans and even Romans of the Republic and also from the Imperial Age and others. Archers are reserved for the steppe peoples. The javelin can be thrown, but if it is long enough it can also be used as a lance. Later, these unarmored lancers were called Uhlans...
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Post by stevie on May 22, 2023 18:27:34 GMT
If HA can shoot at a range, then why would anybody want to use ordinary javelin armed LH? Presumably because their army list doesn't give them a choice. How many armies historically opted for javelins over bows when both were available? (There's some effective obsolescence under current rules as well - why would you use LCh when you could have Cv - same combat factors but more maneuverable?) Good points Kaiphranos… …although having lots of HA will be superior to lots of LH, which will influence the choice of tournament armies. Still, having unbalanced hopelessly weak armies is common in DBA, which is why you rarely see Ax, Ps, and LH armies in tournaments. (By the way, I think LCh, but not javelin armed Cv, should be able to shoot.
So the list is growing…Art, WWg, Bows, Psiloi, all LH, and now LCh as well) |
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Post by snowcat on May 22, 2023 23:37:48 GMT
I don't recall seeing my particular idea for LH horse archers (or HA or LHA if you prefer) specifically distant shooting at 1BW (80 paces) at CF of 2, and with this extended to Cv horse archers at the same shooting CF of 2, previously proposed on this forum. (If others have already done it, great.)
If LH are divided into LHA and LHJ (LH with javelin) for instance, a simple rule defining them both shouldn't be difficult to create.
(Giving LHA the ability to distant shoot *DOES* slow the game down *SLIGHTLY* because they are getting into positions where they can shoot (sometimes via a flank) and they also get to shoot after recoils. This adds a little extra time to the game. But I think it's a good thing, not a bad thing. And remember, when they're not shooting into a Threat Zone, they can combine their shooting, just like Bw.)
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Post by snowcat on May 23, 2023 2:42:04 GMT
Presumably because their army list doesn't give them a choice. How many armies historically opted for javelins over bows when both were available? (There's some effective obsolescence under current rules as well - why would you use LCh when you could have Cv - same combat factors but more maneuverable?) Good points Kaiphranos… …although having lots of HA will be superior to lots of LH, which will influence the choice of tournament armies. Still, having unbalanced hopelessly weak armies is common in DBA, which is why you rarely see Ax, Ps, and LH armies in tournaments. (By the way, I think LCh, but not javelin armed Cv, should be able to shoot.
So the list is growing…Art, WWg, Bows, Psiloi, all LH, and now LCh as well)If you're going to run with my idea of 1BW (80 paces) shooting for LH, and extend it to also include Ps and LCh, I would point out that my original post included Cv (with bow) in the 'horse archers' category.
Here's the relevant bit again: "The same option could be extended to Cv horse archers - such as Avars, Turks, Mongols, etc - at the same distant shooting range of 1BW (80-paces) and CF of 2, retaining their CF3 in close combat.
Potentially recoiling an enemy element or two from distant shooting in this way places additional PIP-strain on the enemy general: the need to redress the lines vs things he would rather be doing. Un-redressed (disordered) lines can then be exploited by the LH (& Cv) charging home."
You can't have LCh distant shooting in the same fashion as LHA, without also having Cv(horse archers) doing the same. And *if* LCh get to distant shoot (and I have some concerns about this), their CF for distant shooting must not be greater than the CF used by LHA and Cv horse archers, or you would have an unrealistic situation. Keep the distant shooting CF at 2 and they can 'peck, peck, peck', chipping away until something eventually gives way. At CF 3 something *could* give way too easily. Playtesting will show whether this is indeed true.
To return to Cv horse archers: Plenty of Cv in steppe armies (Avars, Turks, Mongols, etc.) had their cavalry shooting in much the same way as the light horse archers. It certainly wasn't just the light horse archers doing all the shooting. Both LH archers and Cv archers shot up their enemy, looking for weaknesses they could exploit by charging home. The LH archers were just usually the more numerous troop available to these armies, with some exceptions.
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Post by stevie on May 23, 2023 9:10:24 GMT
I entirely agree with you Snowcat (there, I bet that surprised you!  )Soooo:- Art = range 5 BW, using their standard combat factors. WWg = range 3 BW, using their standard combat factors. Bows = range 3 BW, using their standard combat factors (using massed volleys). All Ps = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (using their standard combat factors). All LH = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (both javelin LH and bow HA). Cv bows = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (but not javelin armed Cavalry). All LCh = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (both javelin LCh and bow LCh). This does mean that Cv with bows will be superior to Cv with javelins, but as Kaiphranospointed out, this is actually both historical and unavoidable. About LCh: if you are going to have HA Horse Archers shooting, then it’s a bit difficult to give a reason why Egyptian bow armed Light Chariots cannot have the same advantage. As for javelin armed Light Chariots, such as the Ancient Britons, they didn’t charge in like Heavy Chariots, but lobbed their missiles at a distance, only charging in when they thought the enemy was sufficiently disrupted (in much the same way as the javelin LH operated). |
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Post by snowcat on May 23, 2023 9:25:32 GMT
Stevie Re the LCh example: I could see how the Egyptian bow armed charioteer was the elite light horse archer of his day, so in DBA terms it kinda works within its respective period in a similar way to how many other troop (and weapon) classes work within their respective time periods. I believe this extension of my idea has potential. It should certainly 'feel' authentic on the tabletop, with the opportunity to produce similar results to those we've read about in history. I think your idea about LH ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps should be an absolute given. I know the idea has been around for a while, but it makes too much sense to ignore it. I'd call it pretty essential for LH. I also like mthrguth's idea of increasing the movement rate for LH to 5BW. This way, it fits in with my principle of providing the LH with what they had intrinsically as LH, rather than trying to fix it by giving them more PIPs as a substitute. Phil's idea of keeping them on 4BW movement relied on them getting subsequent moves (costing extra PIPs) for greater movement, but as playtesting has shown, those extra PIPs are rarely available. Just give the LH the darned extra speed and movement they had in the first place, and the need for extra PIPs goes away! It's a bit obvious really. I think this has real potential. Hopefully it won't get shot down in flames!  |
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Post by stevie on May 23, 2023 9:50:18 GMT
If LH have a speed of 5 BW, and if ‘breaking-off combat’ is allowed when you are faster, then certain elements, notably Knights, will pursue, potentially into dangerous positions. (simulating ‘fained flight’ perhaps?).If so, then does the LH (be they javelin or bow armed) need a ‘quick kill’ against Knights? A quick ‘fained flight’ and a pursuit into a double overlap position could be sufficient.  |
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Post by snowcat on May 23, 2023 10:00:52 GMT
This question also takes us into the territory of: 'do LH still need rear support?'
I maintain the whole rear support for LH is an artificial mechanism stapled onto the back of an inadequately represented horse archer in the first place, no matter how conveniently the supply lines of horse archers was tailored to fit the mechanism. Represent the LH properly and you don't need to add artificial mechanisms to fix them.
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Post by snowcat on May 23, 2023 23:46:15 GMT
All foot use their 'vs Mounted' CFs when shot at by mounted archers. Note: Bd should probably still receive their CF 4 vs distant shooting, in line with other shielded heavy foot, even though in this case they're being shot at by mounted archers. Another point on the Celtic LCh: I'm not convinced they deserve distant shooting capability like LCh archers, as the latter carried multiple quivers and could continually hit the enemy with arrows; the warrior in a Celtic chariot might carry a few extra javelins at best, and would probably achieve more from psychological effect than actual damage. However, it's not a deal breaker. Consider it an act of benevolence towards the Celts. On LH rear support: Remove it. The supply lines of remounts and ammunition enabled horse archers to maintain their shooting upon the enemy over an extended period. It did not provide them with an added impact bonus at the line of contact with the enemy. The supply lines are ALREADY THERE, you don't need rear support to represent them. Rear support for LH is an artificial mechanism added to compensate for a weak troop type under RAW. Get rid of it. The good thing about this distant shooting at 40 paces idea is that it adds/restores an extra dimension to troops that historically possessed it, doesn't overpower them, and doesn't force a player to have his troops use it if he doesn't want to. Move/charge into contact if/whenever you prefer. Limiting the distance to 1BW (80 paces) prevents much combined shooting (due to frontal Threat Zones), which in turn makes it much harder for mounted archers or foot skirmishers to simply vaporize an enemy element by combining their shooting against it; instead, they'll be trying to gain a recoil here and there down the enemy line, and try to capitalise on that thereafter. Mounted archers and foot skirmishers will therefore seek benefit from working the enemy's flanks outside of Threat Zones where combined shooting from 2 or even 3 elements might be possible (although again not easy with only the 1BW range). And in such advantageous positions, moving into contact/charging home might be preferred. It's nice to have the option. That's the point. |
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Post by stevie on May 24, 2023 11:11:43 GMT
I think letting all LCh have a (limited) shooting ability is fine.
Only a few of the Book One armies had bow armed LCh.
The rest had javelins or throwing spears (HCh have thrusting spears).
Thus in the very early periods we have javelin and bow armed LCh shooting,
while in the later classical period we have javelin and bow armed LH shooting.
Seems about right to me.
Here is a further thought:-
If LH have a speed of 5 BW, then do they need two subsequent moves?
A single subsequent move should be enough…
…it covers nearly the same distance, and it would eliminate another fiddly rule
and streamline things (i.e. both Ps and LH can make a single subsequent move).
However, LH moving 5 BW does have a potential disadvantage…
…fleeing will cover more distance, making leaving the table more likely.
(I don’t see this as a problem…LH just needs to move further forwards)
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Post by snowcat on May 24, 2023 11:18:01 GMT
I'm good with all of that. Re fleeing: 4BW compulsory, 5BW optional. (You're already fleeing as far as anyone else; to go a little further should be optional - it's called free will.)
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Post by snowcat on May 25, 2023 2:25:07 GMT
Note re 1BW shooting by horse archers/skirmishers into enemy Threat Zones: once a horse archer/Ps element shooting at the enemy line from 1BW achieves a recoil, the recoiling element takes its Threat Zone with it, leaving the successful shooter to support the shooting of an element to either side of itself if the enemy does not redress its line or advance into contact first. This is when the initial disorder threatens to open the enemy line. Additional recoils become possible, and it becomes easier to destroy an enemy element outright. If the enemy finds itself pinned, without the right tools to defend itself (see below), 'Carrhae' becomes a real possibility.
What does this mean for the enemy? It needs to drive off the horse archers/Ps. It cannot simply 'turtle-up' and remain impenetrable. It must either advance into contact and attempt to damage/drive off the threat, or pound it with its own archery or artillery, if it possesses any. Its own horse archers/Ps, if it has some, can be used to counter the enemy's. Otherwise, horse archers/Ps, either using the 'break off from combat if faster' rule or after fleeing, should be able to withdraw, return, and re-commence their shooting at 1BW against a slower enemy attempting to defeat them in combat.
Suddenly horse archers/Ps are very valuable, and can be more threatening if you don't have the tools to counter them.
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Post by snowcat on May 25, 2023 8:22:00 GMT
Peltasts. Ax(F). 1BW distant shooting. Just sayin'. If Ps and Ax(F) get 1BW distant shooting, you can really simulate anti-hoplite warfare. If all you have is Sp and your enemy has psiloi and peltasts . . . Sphacteria! (Under RAW the PS can't do much and the Ax just die.) |
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Post by stevie on May 25, 2023 9:30:20 GMT
I’m glad you’ve added 3Ax to the shooting lists… …it saves me from having to do it. Many 3Ax troops, be they Greek Peltasts, Spanish natives, later Thracians, Cappadocians, or just about any 3Ax, were historically noted for skirmishing. But not 3Wb, who were more inclined to impetuously charge in. I’ve taken the liberty of including them on my list:- Soooo:- Art = range 5 BW, using their standard combat factors. WWg = range 3 BW, using their standard combat factors. Bows = range 3 BW, using their standard combat factors (using massed volleys). All Ps = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (using their standard combat factors). All LH = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (both javelin LH and bow HA). Cv bows = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (but not javelin armed Cavalry). All LCh = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (both javelin LCh and bow LCh). All 3Ax = range 1 BW, shooting combat factor of 2 (but not Wb or 4Ax).
and anything that improves my downtrodden members abilities is greatly welcomed) |
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