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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 17, 2022 10:21:48 GMT
Hi there! I'm from Würzburg and freshly addicted to DBA.
I started with the idea of building up a set of armies around Clontarf 1014 and Hastings 1066.
Now that my two armies of Irish III/46 and Vikings III/40b are ready for action I find that they behave quite unexpected. While the legendary Brian Boru defeated almost every viking army that turned up, now I find that nearly impossible.
When I use the DBA 2.2 rules the vikings are a really tough nut to crack but at least offer lots of fun. But using the DBA 3.0 rules they seem to be almost invincible. And the fate of the irish army seems always to depend on the luck of a single element of Cavalry or Warband, how disappointing!
Well, I've found already some valuable hints in the strategy thread concerning the Saxons how to make things more even with the Vikings ...
Now my question. Is there any classification system of battle power? What do you do if you want to determine the strength of a single army?
Maybe you could sum up all the CFs and divide them by the full number of elements at your disposal. In this way the vikings would get a clear 5 against foot, and the irish a 3!
Any ideas?
Cheers,
Brian
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 17, 2022 12:26:51 GMT
Welcome Brian!
Unfortunately you have found a (potential) weakness in DBA 3. A blade-heavy army will outmuscle an auxillia-heavy army in open terrain ("billiard table terrain"). But the Irish have the advantage of being Aggression 1 versus the Aggression 4 Vikings. So the Irish will choose terrain most of the time. Being Littoral they can narrow the battlefield with a Waterway and then place enough Bad Going to make it a fair fight. The weakness is that there is no compulsion for the Vikings to enter the Bad Going so you may end up with a stalemate. DBA 3 doesn't have a strategic component that would force one of the combatants to attack. Campaign rules help with this problem but not in one-off battles. This also happens with Rivers, which seem too much of an obstacle for most people to bother deploying. As for ranking armies, there are so many variables that this would be difficult, which is a good thing. If there was a tweak to have the lighter armies defend in their own terrain more often and light horse armies to out scout their enemies then armies would be even more evenly matched, making the game even better.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by vodnik on Jul 17, 2022 16:17:14 GMT
..DBA is a game with miniatures. It is not calculation. In ewery Version of DBA 5:3 is the same. But you can try other armies; auxielia armies in bat going or cavalry armies or ewen armies with elephants...
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Post by martin on Jul 17, 2022 17:39:37 GMT
If the Irish army can get the Viking blades to pursue into marshes it can even things up nicely…..if…..
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 17, 2022 18:02:03 GMT
..DBA is a game with miniatures. It is not calculation. In ewery Version of DBA 5:3 is the same. But you can try other armies; auxielia armies in bat going or cavalry armies or ewen armies with elephants... Oh, no, I won't leave my dear vikings and irish behind! For some disgusting terrible Oliphant!
But you're right! DBA is not calculation, sometimes it is pure luck, but most of the time (I hope so) it is the tactical skill of the general, the man behind the machine ... But in the end of this dice-driven game we're again up to mathematics: statistics and probabilities. Therefore a short look at these army values of 5 and 3 will tell me at once the different ways that are open to me (if i'm the leader of the 3) and which way is blocked: confrontation in the open. But I agree. An experienced DBA general will simply have a look at his opponents forces and know what to do. I was deeply impressed by the possibilities of DBA 2.2 with Psiloi supporting from behind. The battles seemed much more balanced and chesslike, always nerve racking, and ended most of the times much more like Waterloo: as a near run thing. I hope DBA 3.0 still has this special quality. Concerning the vikings and the irish there's a nice detail. The homes of these armies are both littoral. So even if the vikings come up as the defenders, the terrain will help the irish.
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Post by timurilank on Jul 17, 2022 19:10:09 GMT
Brianboru,
Luck can play a role, but as some have already suggested, terrain selection and placement will help balance the game.
Both armies are Littoral and have the compulsory waterway, however weigh the advantages/disadvantages each optional piece will produce for each troop type.
Terrain pieces need not be large, but enough so their presence can impede a general’s control if troops are beyond 4BW and not seen (difficult hills, woods, dunes).
The Norse Irish can select 4 x 4Bd, more can be added with a Viking ally. Yet much will depend on your style of game. It took some time before my Iberian could defeat the legions of Rome.
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 18, 2022 16:23:36 GMT
Thanks!
A lot of food for thought.
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Post by stevie on Jul 19, 2022 8:51:49 GMT
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 19, 2022 11:06:06 GMT
Well, that really reduces DBA onto its true heart! Thanks! This material is really helpful. - - - - - Well, now I think I've found an easy and maybe even elegant solution to the problem of my unbalanced armies: In the next game we will determine the outcome of combat with 8 sided dice (d8). I think that might lead to a bit more tension in the game. We'll see!
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 13, 2023 11:36:58 GMT
Right now I'm pondering about my new IV/30 Teutonic Order army. It looks splendid and quite strong. Short time ago we discussed the topic of crap armies. Now I wonder: Are there certain armies you would describe as strongest, best, nearly invincible? Which armies do you like best in tournaments?
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Post by stevie on Jul 13, 2023 13:02:32 GMT
Oh it’s impossible to say Brian.
An army of Knights will trample an army of Auxiliaries or Psiloi… …but the Knights are at a big disadvantage against Camels. So it all depends on who you are facing.
Generally speaking, the best are ‘combined arms’ armies, with a mixture of several different unit types. Likewise, the weakest tend to be ‘mono armies’, composed of just lots of units of a single type (unless they are lucky enough to face another ‘mono army’, with lots of juicy quick-killable victims).
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Post by mthrguth on Jul 13, 2023 15:04:33 GMT
In the old days we just added up combat factors. You could also have two ratings, one versus horse and another versus foot. Back then though there were no quick kills by knights to complicate the assessment by combat factor; and elephants only cost 1 pip to move.
Now I would add a third category, rough terrain versus open terrain.
There was a great article on using Mongols under the DBM rules. Mongols ,apparently, were losers. One player wrote though of his Mongol philosophy. He almost never lost. How? By refusing to attack into 'cornered armies' when the board was unfavorable. The Great Khan was too smart to launch suicidal attacks against fortified positions. He did not care if he got a 'draw.' To the Great Khan a draw was simply an invitation to fight later, on his own terms. . To reiterate, you stand more than a 50% chance of putting 3 big terrain pieces in 3 quarters of the board. Romans and knights beat Irish? Ha, try setting the Irish uphill of the Romans in wooded hills.
Again,a player is no more required to set up in clear terrain than he is in difficult going. Don't commit suicide in the name fair play. No Roman player is going to invite you to put out extra wooded hills in the name of fair play. You shouldn't make the board empty.
Or you could play Triumph, where the Irish move very quickly and are hard to pin down.
Now low aggression armies with all rough terrain troops still have problems. Alas.
In summary, not only might you assess armies by their total, anti foot and anti mounted combat factors; but also based on their open versus close terrain combat factors-perhaps normalized by their aggression to factor in how likely they are to fight in their desired terrain.
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Post by hammurabi70 on Jul 16, 2023 7:22:44 GMT
Many years ago (15?) someone tried calculating a combat value for each element. Maybe someone still retains a copy of this.
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Post by mwise on Jul 16, 2023 10:58:00 GMT
Many years ago (15?) someone tried calculating a combat value for each element. Maybe someone still retains a copy of this. Most probably the DBA Combat Factor Matrix. Still available from the old archive.
Regards
Mark W
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 17, 2023 8:26:02 GMT
Many years ago (15?) someone tried calculating a combat value for each element. Maybe someone still retains a copy of this. Most probably the DBA Combat Factor Matrix. Still available from the old archive.
Regards
Mark W
Great stuff, mwise! Concerning CF ratings it is the file DBA 2.0 Armies By Point Value (updated to DBA 3.0). With really heavy number crunching inside and a very interesting army ranking. Much food for thought ...
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