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Post by stevie on Jan 27, 2022 10:39:01 GMT
Following on from what Joe Collins posted above, players might be interested in seeing the development
evolution of the Threat Zone rule. Items below underlined in italics helps to highlight changes.
Old DBA 2.0
No element can cross the front of an enemy element or enemy-controlled BUA or camp within 1 base width
distance and not at least partially separated from it by another element, except to contact or face 1 such
element or contact that BUA or camp, or retire to its own rear, or as an outcome move.
Early Draft 2011
An element at the far edge of, in or entering an enemy DZ (Danger Zone) with no part of another
element between can move only into contact with, or directly towards or away from, or to line up with,
one such element or that camp or BUA, or as a combat outcome.
March 2012
An element at the far edge of, in or entering an enemy TZ with no part of another element between can
move only into frontal contact with, or wheel to become parallel with or to line up with the TZ-ing element
(or contact that camp or BUA), or move directly to its own rear.
September & October 2013
An element or group in, entering or touching the far edge of an enemy TZ can move only:
(a) to advance to line up in contact with or towards such contact, or parallel opposite the front edge
of 1 such element (or contact that camp, city or fort); or
if a single element (b) straight back for the entire move, or
(c) after combat; as an outcome move or to conform if still in contact.
June 2014
An element or group which is at least partly within or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its
far edge can move only:
(a) to line up its front edge with the enemy generating the TZ or
(b) to advance into or towards contact with the enemy generating the TZ or
(c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves.
Final Published Version:-
An element or group which is at least partly within or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its
far edge can move only:
(a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or
(b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, or
(c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves.
I am unable to find the November 2013 draft that Joe says that he preferred.
Could someone please post this, or would that be a pointless exercise?
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Post by medievalthomas on Jan 27, 2022 22:16:43 GMT
When reversing direction movement is measured from the farthest moving front corner in a straight line.
Backing into a TZ can't be allowed. I had some fiendish playtesters and this would have been rapidly abused.
If players would prefer it could be a base rule that reversing direction costs 1BW of movement.
It was felt that a Element TZed on its rear should not just be able to flip and back away. It seemed reasonable that the first reaction would be a wild scramble to face towards the approaching enemy.
So we got it pretty well correct on most counts.
TomT
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 29, 2022 21:36:39 GMT
Stevie:
My recollection was off a month. It was the Sept./Oct 2013 version.
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Jan 30, 2022 0:09:40 GMT
Thanks for that Joe. Good to see that I haven’t missed anything.  Soooo then…and I may be jumping the gun here…taking into account all that has been said previously by MedievalThomas, Joe Collins, and others, can I assume that the following is how we should be interpreting the current Threat Zone rule?:- New Interpretation of the Threat Zone RuleAn element or group which starts at least partly within or whose front edge only enters an enemy TZ (other edges cannot voluntarily enter a TZ on their own) or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves. Will this prevent 'backward Moonwalking' through Threat Zones? An alternative wording could be:- New Interpretation of the Threat Zone RuleAn element or group which starts at least partly within or whose front edge is the first edge to voluntarily enter an enemy TZ or if the element touches an enemy TZ far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves. |
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Post by medievalthomas on Jan 31, 2022 17:12:48 GMT
I think the second.
On a related issue: there has been considerable confusion about move staight forward toward contact in a TZ. This I believe is explicit in HOTT and other DBX games but vague enough in 3.0 that its caused some facebook consternation.
You don't need to wheel or pivot to become more aligned in a TZ as long as a starch forward movement would eventually end in contact (you don't have to make contact only show that if you kept moving starlight you could contact).
Despite our efforts there is a community on facebook (including part of the playtest team) that thinks when a Group enters the TZ of a single Element, the Group has to start wheeling to conform to the single Element and can't just move straight forward and crash into the single Element to force it to conform.
This interpt would bring back the bad old days of cockeyeing a single Element in such a way that a large Group can't conform with out breaking up.
TomT
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Post by stevie on Jan 31, 2022 18:25:27 GMT
I agree with you Tom.
From a game point of view: where in the rules does it say “groups must conform to single elements”?
(well, they do if the single element is entirely in Rough or Bad Going…but that is specifically mentioned)
From a realistic point of view: big battalions dominate small battalions.
(and I’ve been in enough political demonstrations to know that this is true! Ha, ha, ha!)
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 31, 2022 20:00:39 GMT
Well, sort of...
The problem of exceptions arises. The most common is of course the wheel to contact when a hole is opened in the center of an enemy line.
Your back corner moves through the enemy threat zone... and in fact your back corner moves through the enemy element! This if course is covered by a special case in the rules (though it has issues which I will not voice. I have faith Stevie will suss them out!)
There can I think also be weird cases where movement will be prevented when it shouldn't. An example would be a legitimate retreat that crosses another zone...
The front edge bit is an artifact I believe of some thinking the came from Phil's inner group that was found problematic, but parts were never removed.
My preference would be to have any entry to a threat zone trigger a response (with of course the wheel to contact exception listed above).
I just don't see the odd backwards move being used in games to any advantage. The only troops that could take advantage on a regular basis would be CV and LH.
We consider them radically mobile anyway.
Perhaps the remedy is worse here than the malady.
Joe Collins
Thanks for that Joe. Good to see that I haven’t missed anything. Soooo then…and I may be jumping the gun here…taking into account all that has been said previously by MedievalThomas, Joe Collins, and others, can I assume that the following is how we should be interpreting the current Threat Zone rule?:- New Interpretation of the Threat Zone RuleAn element or group which starts at least partly within or whose front edge only enters an enemy TZ (other edges cannot voluntarily enter a TZ on their own) or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves. Will this prevent 'backward Moonwalking' through Threat Zones? An alternative wording could be:- New Interpretation of the Threat Zone RuleAn element or group which starts at least partly within or whose front edge is the first edge to voluntarily enter an enemy TZ or if the element touches an enemy TZ far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves. |
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Post by stevie on Jan 31, 2022 22:50:40 GMT
The problem of exceptions arises. The most common is of course the wheel to contact when a hole is opened in the center of an enemy line.
Your back corner moves through the enemy threat zone... and in fact your back corner moves through the enemy element! This if course is covered by a special case in the rules (though it has issues which I will not voice. I have faith Stevie will suss them out!) I’ll have a go Joe, I’ll have a go.  Figure 6c shows a Cavalry element ‘wheeling’ into a gap to ‘shut-the-door’ and make a flank attack, and this causes the rear corner to enter the enemy TZ, and even pass through an enemy element. So a special rule exception had to be added to cover this. Well, I refer readers to page 9, Interpenetrating Troops, third paragraph:- “Since the men represented by an element are not necessarily in a rigid permanent formation, one rear corner may pass through another element, or an enemy TZ, or a terrain feature, while the element’s front edge wheels (figure 6c) or pivots (figure 12a). ” (Not my words, but those of Phil Barker, also repeated in the Figure 6c dialogue)If something is unclear, confusing, missing, or wrong, then let's correct it. That’s what the FAQ does. Saying “Oh, it’s wrong, but carry on using it” is a very weak response. Especially now that Sheffmark has let the genie out of the bottle, and some players will begin to exploit this daft ‘Moonwalk’ flaw… Having said that, I quite like the simple idea of first turning to face the TZ generator, then moving straight back, like the Early Draft of 2011 implied. And if this straight back move enters another new TZ, then again turn to face the new threat before continuing to use the remaining movement straight back. (A bit like fleeing but meeting a table side-edge and turning before continuing) |
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 1, 2022 1:09:55 GMT
Can ask for a clarification based on the example I posted on Jan 25 on this thread? Would the green element have to pivot (expending movement) outside of the TZ until it reached a position where its front edge would enter the TZ first before measuring furthest corner to furthest corner? I think that would be a major change to how people play currently. (Now if an "about-face" was free...).
Cheers
Jim
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