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Post by sheffmark on Jan 21, 2022 17:44:59 GMT
Everyone knows you can't move across a threat zone right?
Ok so how about the following sneaky move, which was suggested to me recently.
Situation
You have a Ps just inside a wood, near to and facing the side board edge, thus stopping a nearby enemy cavalry element getting around the flank.
The Cv turns around and moves backwards down the side of the board. According to the rules, as soon as it's partly within the Ps threat zone it's movement options become limited. However, one of these options is "to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move."
Ok, so you could argue that as it has turned around it can't continue moving backwards as it hasn't done this for its entire move, but what is to stop it doing it next move and so effectively moving through the TZ?
Alternatively if the Cv turned the move before it could, theoretically, move 4 BW straight through the TZ without stopping.
I have to point out that the move was not actually made, as we agreed it was very sneaky and against the spirit of the rules, but from what we can see it is completely legal. Unless someone can point out otherwise?
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Post by paulisper on Jan 21, 2022 17:56:07 GMT
Is the key here ‘to its own rear’? Does this mean it’s own board edge or to it’s element’s rear? If it’s the former, then you could argue it’s an illegal move, but this would create all manner of craziness in normal play. It looks, therefore, that this is a legal move, as cheesy as it is…
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Post by martin on Jan 21, 2022 18:05:57 GMT
Is the key here ‘to its own rear’? Does this mean it’s own board edge or to it’s element’s rear? If it’s the former, then you could argue it’s an illegal move, but this would create all manner of craziness in normal play. It looks, therefore, that this is a legal move, as cheesy as it is… Own rear is always ‘element’s own rear’, no mention of base edge (or coast if eg just landed as being its rear. Sneaky one….. |
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Post by kaiphranos on Jan 21, 2022 18:28:55 GMT
Well, clearly if my troops are turned around and walking backward, they aren't looking at the enemy and thus don't feel threatened.  |
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Post by medievalthomas on Jan 21, 2022 20:12:42 GMT
You can't back into a Threat Zone. If moving backwards it would have to stop at edge. To move in a TZ you must become more aligned with the TZing Element or move straight forward toward contact. As you can't contact an Element moving backwards and you are not aligning your front edge you can't make the move.
TomT
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Post by paulisper on Jan 21, 2022 22:14:46 GMT
You can't back into a Threat Zone. If moving backwards it would have to stop at edge. To move in a TZ you must become more aligned with the TZing Element or move straight forward toward contact. As you can't contact an Element moving backwards and you are not aligning your front edge you can't make the move. TomT But where does it say this in the rules? P |
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Post by stevie on Jan 22, 2022 7:24:57 GMT
You can't back into a Threat Zone. If moving backwards it would have to stop at edge. To move in a TZ you must become more aligned with the TZing Element or move straight forward toward contact. As you can't contact an Element moving backwards and you are not aligning your front edge you can't make the move. TomT But where does it say this in the rules? P Well, where in the rules does it say “ For Combat, a River is neither good nor other going…”? Yet some players (and the FAQ Team, many of whom seem to think they are still playing DBA 2.2) insist that these words are in the rules…somewhere…hidden away… (Must be written with invisible ink that only shows up under ultraviolet lighting,
because I can’t see ‘em)
We can’t expect the rules to cover every possible situation, or they’d be the size of a telephone directory! Sometimes we just have to use good old ‘common sense’. And I’m quite partial to MedievalThomas’ interpretation. It’s simple, it seems realistic, it cures a flaw in the rules, and it does make sense. |
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Post by paulisper on Jan 22, 2022 7:40:28 GMT
I have no issue with that interpretation, as otherwise it opens up a significant issue for the game mechanics, but I would still like to see where the rules state or even imply what TomT is saying here…. A FAQ edict would be helpful here.
P
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Post by sheffmark on Jan 22, 2022 7:58:54 GMT
We can’t expect the rules to cover every possible situation, or they’d be the size of a telephone directory! Sometimes we just have to use good old ‘common sense’. And I’m quite partial to MedievalThomas’ interpretation. It’s simple, it seems realistic, it cures a flaw in the rules, and it does make sense. The problem with applying common sense to situations not covered in the rules Stevie, is that some people aren't common and some people aren't sensible!! If you can't back into a Threat Zone that means if you're pinned to the front but also have an enemy element sitting on your flank a base width behind your rear edge, then you can't move at all, except to go forward. So, for example, LH just get stuck without being able to run away, which doesn't seem right? |
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Post by vodnik on Jan 22, 2022 17:19:24 GMT
...during all over tournament games in Ulm we had no such problems. If there were any problems an umpires world decide. In this situation a ZOC is a ZOC is a ZOC is a ZOC...
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Post by stevie on Jan 22, 2022 21:12:58 GMT
We can’t expect the rules to cover every possible situation, or they’d be the size of a telephone directory! Sometimes we just have to use good old ‘common sense’. And I’m quite partial to MedievalThomas’ interpretation. It’s simple, it seems realistic, it cures a flaw in the rules, and it does make sense. The problem with applying common sense to situations not covered in the rules Stevie, is that some people aren't common and some people aren't sensible!!  If you can't back into a Threat Zone that means if you're pinned to the front but also have an enemy element sitting on your flank a base width behind your rear edge, then you can't move at all, except to go forward. So, for example, LH just get stuck without being able to run away, which doesn't seem right? Ha! Being a loveable cockney, they don’t come much more common than me!  And as for being ‘sensible’…is it ‘sensible’ to have troops doing Michael Jackson backwards ‘Moonwalks’ through an enemy Threat Zone, and this said enemy just stands there watching, presumably awestruck before breaking-out into rapturous applause at this artistic choreography? A Threat Zone represents a nearby danger, that could result in an exposed vulnerable flank or rear being attacked, leading to the destruction of the unit. Other rules try to simulate ‘counter charges’ during the non-bounding turn… …but these are awfully complicated in a ‘you-go-I-go’ movement system. DBA uses a more abstract system to simulate this, and is largely successful. Now I’m not saying that MedievalThomas’ interpretation is completely perfect. But it’s better than moving backwards arse first just to bypass the TZ rules… …rules that are so badly conceived and so poorly worded that they allow a situation like this that flies in the face of simple common sense. Or maybe ancient soldiers just couldn’t dance, ha, ha, ha!  |
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Post by Baldie on Jan 23, 2022 7:30:22 GMT
I wouldn't be so quick to rule it out, it may explain how Republican Rome was able to replenish the battle line.
Troops trained in interpretive dance.
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Post by jim1973 on Jan 23, 2022 10:11:37 GMT
Well, if you end up in a position with an enemy threatening your front and another threatening your flank then you are in a bit of a pickle! You probably shouldn't be able to escape in an orderly manner. Either freeze, fight or break. So I agree that you cannot enter TZ backwards, unless you're pivoting to line up to the enemy. Certainly can't back across it.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by Simon on Jan 23, 2022 11:21:02 GMT
Well, if you end up in a position with an enemy threatening your front and another threatening your flank then you are in a bit of a pickle! You probably shouldn't be able to escape in an orderly manner. Either freeze, fight or break. So I agree that you cannot enter TZ backwards, unless you're pivoting to line up to the enemy. Certainly can't back across it. Cheers Jim If in 2 threat zones, I think you can choose one of the threat zones to back away from - see diagram 7b. I agree that you can't back into a threat zone - unless you are backing out of another one. |
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Post by stevie on Jan 23, 2022 11:27:34 GMT
I wouldn't be so quick to rule it out, it may explain how Republican Rome was able to replenish the battle line. Troops trained in interpretive dance. Hmmm…maybe Irish fast 3Ax should also be allowed to move backwards in order to avoid the TZ rules, when they perform Michael Flatley style Riverdance routines… But on a serious note, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if a little more consideration had been applied to the wording of the Threat Zone section:- (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, or (c) if a single element that starts the bound in a TZ, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. Of course the rules don’t actually say this…but perhaps they should have. Then this ludicrous situation wouldn’t be possible. So there we have it…either use common sense to understand the meaning/spirit/purpose/reason for the TZ rules (although badly worded with flaws), OR, blindly follow the TZ rules exactly as they are written and expect to see more backward ‘Moonwalk Manoeuvring’ to avoid the TZ limitations. The choice is yours… (I am reminded of an episode of Red Dwarf where Rimmer tells of his parents being devout Christians
who insisted on following the Bible word-for-word. Unfortunately their copy had a misprint and was
missing an ‘e’, so it read as “The greatest virtues are Faith, Hop and Charity”, and that’s what they did.
Every Sunday they would spend the entire day hopping about on one leg, because that’s what they
thought the good book told them to do.
The family had to wear wetsuits when soup was being served…
And speaking of troops moving about backwards to avoid the TZ limitations, I’m reminded of another
Red Dwarf episode where the crew end up on an alternative Earth where everybody is speaking and
walking backwards, because time there is running in reverse.
This was fine until the Cat wanted to go for a poo, and this bodily function happened in reverse order…)
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