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Post by bertrandspm on Oct 16, 2021 7:25:16 GMT
Hello guys,
Here a question not resolved here in France :
1/ a group in line made up of 2 Ps and 1 solid Bd : Ps Ps Bd
2/ the Ps are in BGo and the Bd in GGo
How many PIPs to move the group (the Bd will never enter the BGo) : 1 (considering the Ps can move freely in BGo and the Bd is in GGo), or 2 (1 for the Ps considering that only them can move freely in line in BGo and 1 for the Bd) ?
Thanks for the answer(s)
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 16, 2021 8:17:12 GMT
Hi
It would take 2 PIPs.
Bottom paragraph on page 8 says:
"A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi."
So as part of the group is moving in bad going it must be either in a column or entirely by Ps.
Cheers
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Post by Baldie on Oct 16, 2021 8:47:34 GMT
2 for me
Was there also not something similar about Cm moving as a group through dunes if there was something other than a Cm as part of the group even though it never moved through the dune itself.
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Post by stevie on Oct 16, 2021 8:49:58 GMT
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Post by bertrandspm on Oct 16, 2021 8:55:36 GMT
Thanks guys for your answers and the useful links.
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Post by stevie on Oct 16, 2021 8:59:32 GMT
2 for me Was there also not something similar about Cm moving as a group through dunes if there was something other than a Cm as part of the group even though it never moved through the dune itself. Ah…I think that was me Baldie, asking complicated questions (don’t I always?  ). Some time ago I asked if Camels can move through bad going dunes without hindrance, and so can Psiloi, could a mixed group of Cm and Ps move through dunes for 1 PIP? The consensus of the DBA community was no, they cannot, because the group must be entirely of Psiloi for them to make a side-by-side group move if any of their group is in bad going. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 16, 2021 10:07:00 GMT
We must also remember that ANY side-by-side elements in bad going can still form a group…it’s just that they cannot move as a group, unless they are in a column formation, or consist entirely of Psiloi. (I’ve seen some players claiming you cannot form side-by-side groups
in bad going…which is not true)By the way, the above also applies to Allied troops. Allies CAN form groups with other friendly elements… …it’s just that they cannot move as a group, even when they are in a column formation (but they do also pursue when they are a column and the element at the front of the column pursues). Allies can also provide and receive side-support and rear-support from other friendly elements…if they are in good going of course. |
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Post by paddy649 on Oct 16, 2021 18:54:56 GMT
2 for me Was there also not something similar about Cm moving as a group through dunes if there was something other than a Cm as part of the group even though it never moved through the dune itself. Ah…I think that was me Baldie, asking complicated questions (don’t I always? ). Some time ago I asked if Camels can move through bad going dunes without hindrance, and so can Psiloi, could a mixed group of Cm and Ps move through dunes for 1 PIP? The consensus of the DBA community was no, they cannot, because the group must be entirely of Psiloi for them to make a side-by-side group move if any of their group is in bad going. I would still contest this. The rule is that a group move across bad going must be in column unless entirely by Psloi…..BUT if the BG is Dunes then as far as the Camels are concerned they are moving in GG and not BG - so why not move as a group with Ps. This appears Common Sense to me….but then since when….. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 16, 2021 20:55:18 GMT
Hmmm…it’s a tricky one Paddy.
The very last paragraph on page 8 says:-
“A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going
must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi.”
The key words here are “group move”.
Take a solid Auxiliary side-by-side with a solid Blade.
Could these move as a group if the Ax partly enters bad going?
The rule says no, because it would be a group crossing bad going
(even if the Bd stays in good going, the group has entered the terrain).
Now let’s replace the Ax and Bd with a Cm and a Ps, and the bad going is a dune.
Is the group made up entirely of Psiloi?…no, it is not.
The Camels may treat dunes as good going, but Psiloi do not.
Even if the Ps stayed in good going and didn’t itself enter the dune, it is still part
of a group that has entered the terrain, and can only move as a side-by-side group
in bad going if it consists entirely of Psiloi.
--------------------------------------
There is a similar situation concerning subsequent moves.
A Light Horse side-by-side with a Psiloi can move as a group for 1 PIP in good going.
The Light Horse can then spend another PIP to make a subsequent move.
But so can a Psiloi in the very first bound.
So in the first bound could they make a subsequent group move together for an extra 1 PIP?
The DBA community tells me no…they must pay 2 PIP’s to individually make subsequent moves.
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 17, 2021 0:01:12 GMT
I'm with paddy649 on this one, even though stevie points out the current state of the rules. But I can't imagine the Psiloi of armies that contain camels wouldn't be so used to the situation that they would be able to move with Camels. As Psiloi move around and fight in Bad Going as if its Good Going, you'd be hard pressed to argue that Psiloi don't consider Bad Going as Good Going by their function even though we don't have a Phil Barker type statement of "For movement, Psiloi consider all Bad Going as Good Going". Do people think that Phil should have a rule for every situation? I don't see any other rules sets treated this way and I'm sure this adds to the legend of "Barkerese". I mean we're not specifically told that Camels treat Dunes and Oasis as Good Going, just that they don't treat them as Bad Going. We assume that it's Good Going because it makes sense that the freedom of movement and fighting ability of Camel troops in familiar terrain means that it should be Good Ground. Sounds a lot like Psiloi in all Bad Going! I completely agree that any group movement that involves any element in Bad Going, which actually hampers its movement, should be curtailed. But as this movement of Psiloi and Camels in Dunes or Oasis is not hampered in any way, common sense says it should be allowed in my mind, even though I play it as per the community consensus...most of the time...  Cheers Jim PS As for LH and Psiloi double moves on first turn, I agree with separate PIPs as the Psiloi are looking for terrain that suits them, which clearly does not suit the LH! |
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 17, 2021 1:22:29 GMT
I'm with Paddy too, the operative words are group move and bad going.The Cm and Bd are both making a group move over what they consider to be good going which the Bd do not enter correct? Therefore the group moves entirely through good going and the moving through bad going rules don't apply....or am I missing something?
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Mr.E
Beneficiarii
New comer to DBA
Posts: 80
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Post by Mr.E on Oct 17, 2021 8:55:51 GMT
Yes you are missing the very statement by the rules as it says: “A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going
must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi.
So make it simple if any except psiloi are in Goodgoing side-by-side with a psiloi who is into Bad Going, the rules is saying that isn't longer considered as a group (even if they look like) , as they are not into column. This is simple as that.
So no group moove cause they aren't in group. That all
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 17, 2021 9:48:28 GMT
Yes you are missing the very statement by the rules as it says: “A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi. So make it simple if any except psiloi are in Goodgoing side-by-side with a psiloi who is into Bad Going, the rules is saying that isn't longer considered as a group (even if they look like) , as they are not into column. This is simple as that. So no group moove cause they aren't in group. That all I don't think I'm missing something at all.The rules clearly state on page 6...Dunes and Oasis are BAD GOING except to elements of any type with camels.The key word here is "except" which means "not including or other than" so the rule does not apply to them.The stumbling block here is that the rules as written do not say "Dunes and Oasis are BAD GOING except to elements of any type with camels.."who count it as good going".Everyone knows that camels are an exception and count Dunes and Oasis as good going but apply the group rule because it still after all is BAD GOING...but you cannot dismiss the arguement that it is NOT BAD GOING to them.So how can the rule on page 8 apply to a group which consists of elements that are still moving through good going? If the Group move rule on page 8 is applied to Camels then they too should have to move in column through Dunes & Oasis.I have seen games where the Camels still move through Dunes in lines. |
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Post by Baldie on Oct 17, 2021 9:51:25 GMT
I also play that if Cm are in dunes it may also affect their command radius. They count it as good going but it is still a dune.
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Post by paddy649 on Oct 17, 2021 10:11:14 GMT
I concede that if the rules are analysed, translated, re-translated, FAQed and re-analysed that Camels and Ps moving through Dunes are not allowed to move as a group.
My objection is that in specific circumstances this makes no sense. I mean a group of Camels can trot through Dunes as a group because to them it is GG. A group of Ps can move through Dunes as a group because PB says they can. BUT mix the elements and all of a sudden cohesion between the units breaks down! Why? They are the same units moving through the same terrain and there are no terrain edge effects. I say this because the situation is unlike a group of Ps moving through BG with a Cav element in side to side contact in GG wishing to move with them as a group as there is a terrain edge that would reduce unit cohesion. In the Dunes example there are no terrain edge issues.
Its not the oddest rule in the book but certainly one that is on the list!
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