|
Post by paddy649 on Mar 26, 2021 22:34:15 GMT
Shouldn’t Alexander and his companions just be classified as 6Kn?
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Mar 27, 2021 0:41:30 GMT
Shouldn’t Alexander and his companions just be classified as 6Kn? Ah, but then Alex the Great’s Companions won’t be able to ‘shut the door’ and ‘hard flank’ the enemy... ...as their 1½ BW deep bases won’t be able to turn to fit into a 1 BW gap. That doesn’t sound much like Alexander’s battle accounts. If people don’t like the idea of 3Kn wedges ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps, then I’m fine with that. But I certainly ain’t gonna have ‘em on 1 BW deep bases and give myself a disadvantage for no benefit. I’d sooner have my 3Kn on 30mm deep bases, where they CAN recoil when making flank attacks. It may not look as nice, but they’ll survive a recoil instead of being destroyed...
|
|
|
Post by hammurabi70 on Mar 27, 2021 10:45:40 GMT
Let's give all elements the same CF and movement, then use Britain's 4.7 inch naval guns and matchsticks/toothpicks to shoot 'em down!! Ah, but where do you stop...? Quite so! The difficulty with this is what further adjustments are needed to reflect certain tactical issues. How will the peculiarities of the Roman flexibility be represented? My take is that the DBA system simplifies and overrides such matters. A unit can deploy in any way it likes but DBA looks at the C-in-Cs viewpoint. Was a result I am not a fan of adding further complexity; if required I would be more concerned about soft issues rather than hardware.
|
|
|
Post by Haardrada on Mar 27, 2021 11:17:38 GMT
What about the big Byzantine kataphraktoi wedges? Also, the Avars were said to have used wedges, but I've not been able to confirm it with great certainty. That is a good point Snowcat. I must confess that I’m not looking at this from an historical perspective, but merely from a ‘game-play-balance’ point of view... ...if Mr Barker wants me to have my 3Kn wedges on 1 BW deep bases, where they’re likely to be destroyed when recoiling from a flank attack, then give me an advantage for doing so, not penalize me with a disadvantage! Otherwise I’ll just have my 3Kn on 30mm deep bases thank you very much. Double-based troops only gain their +1 when in close combat with foot. So 6Kn and 6Cv gain nothing when fighting mounted, but their extra deep bases means they often can’t ‘shut-the-door’ and ‘hard-flank’ an opponent simply because there isn’t enough room for them to do so (a disadvantage). Perhaps Page 10 paragraph 8 should say:- “An element not in frontal close combat but in mutual right-to-right or left-to-left front corner contact with any enemy element (except Psiloi, Scythed Chariots, Light Horse, 6Cv, 6Kn, and 3Kn on 1 BW deep bases) overlaps this;” (See figure 16c)
As for LH...well, we all know they are weak and underpowered. Even Mr Barker knows this, which is why he gave them rear-support. And it strikes me as being absurd to have skirmishing Psiloi armed with javelins and bows ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps, yet skirmishing Light Horse armed with the very same weapons won’t use them until they can reach out and physically touch their enemies! Having LH acting like Ps, in addition to gaining rear-support, might just make the Huns, Mongols, Numidians and the like more of a threat rather than being the poor quality Cavalry wimps they are at the moment. (Come to think of it, the same could be said of the 3Ax and 4Ax Peltasts. They too were armed with javelins, and liked to keep their distance. Indeed, the Thracians were noted for inventing 'pelt-the-enemy-from-a-distance' tactics, which proved to be so effective that the Greeks adopted it and even gave up using their old 'toe-to-toe' fighting Hoplites. So did many others. Perhaps ALL 3Ax and 4Ax troops should also ignore corner-to-corner overlaps. It might make them survive a bit longer when fighting heavy foot... ...instead of being slaughtered like helpless sheep as they are at present.)I'm not decided on this argument concerning 3/4Ax, yes they are too whimpy vs heavier foot in the open but as yet there is no agreed measure to fix this. However, your suggestion of ignoring the overlap similarly to Ps although not totally convincing in the open could apply when in BAD or ROUGH going giving Ax an advantage in terrain where they were evolved to be used?
|
|
|
Post by ronisan on Mar 27, 2021 15:04:08 GMT
Hello, in my opinion there shouldn’t be too much of details. Keep the abstrakt view upon 1 element. And keep the big picture in mind ... a whole ancient/medieval battle with just 12 elements on each side! Don’t spoil DBA. Play DBMM 2.1 100 or 240 instead 👍 Cheers, Ronald
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Mar 27, 2021 15:46:14 GMT
...if Mr Barker wants me to have my 3Kn wedges on 1 BW deep bases, where they’re likely to be destroyed when recoiling from a flank attack, then give me an advantage for doing so, not penalize me with a disadvantage! Otherwise I’ll just have my 3Kn on 30mm deep bases thank you very much. Phil Barker’s rules...but my choice. And what about Light Horse also ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps just like Psiloi do? Can anyone give me a good historical or game play-balance reason why they shouldn’t? (And no...simply saying “because Phil Barker never thought of it” is not good enough)
|
|
|
Post by paulhannah on Mar 27, 2021 16:27:31 GMT
And what about Light Horse also ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps just like Psiloi do? Can anyone give me a good historical or game play-balance reason why they shouldn’t? While part of me is reluctant to tinker with Purple any more than the few changes our group has already adopted (all your suggestions, BTW), I think I can hear my Skyths, Huns and Mongols all chattering away behind me now, saying, "Hey, at least, give it a try!" --In idiomatic Proto-Mongolic, of course.
|
|
|
Post by menacussecundus on Mar 27, 2021 18:02:17 GMT
...if Mr Barker wants me to have my 3Kn wedges on 1 BW deep bases, where they’re likely to be destroyed when recoiling from a flank attack, then give me an advantage for doing so, not penalize me with a disadvantage! Otherwise I’ll just have my 3Kn on 30mm deep bases thank you very much. Phil Barker’s rules...but my choice. And what about Light Horse also ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps just like Psiloi do? Can anyone give me a good historical or game play-balance reason why they shouldn’t? (And no...simply saying “because Phil Barker never thought of it” is not good enough)I'm not certain, but I think it might upset the balance when it comes to combats. Ps quick-kill elephants, but nothing else. LH QK Knights and Bw as well. Admittedly, both of these start the combat on a +4 against the LH's +2. But put a line of LH into a line of Bw and then allow the LH to ignore any corner to corner overlaps created by recoils and there is a definite change of dynamic. (This doesn't apply if LH attack Kn, because the latter follow up and create a side-edge to side-edge overlap.) And, unlike Ps, LH can have rear support.
|
|
|
Post by paulhannah on Mar 27, 2021 19:21:04 GMT
I think it might upset the balance... Maybe that's not a bad thing. It's just anecdotal evidence, of course, but here are the W-L records of ten LH armies from our local group since 2002. - I/43 Skythian, 46-66
- II/38 Hsiung-Nu, 14-22
- II/57 Later Moorish, 5-12
- II/80 Hunnic, 48-85
- III/30 Magyar, 37-36
- III/44 Tribal Mongolian, 18-31
- III/44 Pecheneg, 33-46
- III/74 SeljuqTurk, 63-81
- IV/35 Mongol Conquest, 80-100
- IV/52 Later Nomadic Mongol, 8-18
I think Stevie's suggestion is at least worth a try as a house-rule in non-tourney games.
|
|
|
Post by timurilank on Mar 27, 2021 20:25:49 GMT
I will test the corner-to-corner suggestion, starting tomorrow, and place a report to the blog. The Russians are done, so I will test them along with the Teutonic Order, Polish and Lithuanian.
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Mar 28, 2021 0:55:20 GMT
I think Menacusseundus raises a good point.
Yes, allowing LH to ignore corner-to-corner overlaps will change their battlefield behaviour. But surely that is the whole point. LH are currently too weak and under powered, from both an historical and a play-balance point of view.
If I were writing a set of ancient rules (heaven forbid!), then I would base it upon their historical success.
Now it is true that the Huns didn’t conquer the Western Roman Empire... ...but they were a formidable force, that only fell apart when Attila died. As for the Mongols, they DID form the largest continuous empire in history, that lasted long after its founders death.
If in DBA Light Horse armies can’t win battles, then how did they ever form these vast empires?
(I think that Phil Barker would have included LH ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps, if someone in the development team had mentioned it, as it’s blatantly obvious... ...but no one did)
|
|
|
Post by snowcat on Mar 28, 2021 8:08:49 GMT
I think this idea will give something back to LH that frankly makes far too much logical sense to withhold. Historically and logically, it just fits. And I can't see it being too advantageous or causing a rift in the universal order. In fact, even with this, LH-heavy armies will probably still need help.
|
|
|
Post by barritus on Mar 28, 2021 9:41:58 GMT
Personally,
Without wishing to hijack this thread I feel that there is a case for allowing all mounted (in their bound) to ignore being overlapped by foot (except Bow). The foot being immobilised somewhat by bracing for the mounted's impact. This would balance up the introduction in 3.0 of the 'Recoil on Equal result' for most Solid foot - which has swung the combat too far in my opinion to the foot* (with the singular exception of those confounded overpowered Elephants!).
*as an example line up half a dozen Kn's vs an opposing line of Spear - most often the Sp win - which is not as historical as one may think as Pikes were the medieval foots answer to Kn not Sp.....
Cheers
B.
|
|
|
Post by robert on Mar 28, 2021 9:50:38 GMT
Why is this not being disused in the house rule section ?
|
|
|
Post by timurilank on Mar 28, 2021 12:04:57 GMT
As the original poster of the thread, the goal was to increase the mounted option for the Medieval German lists, IV/13c and d.
Currently, knights are 6Kn for the two sub-lists, yet documentation does demonstrate both formations were employed in Germany. The Teutonic Order do have the option of one or two ‘spitz’ for their knights (3Kn or 6Kn). This should also be the case for the Medieval German.
The suggestion to ignore corner-to-corner contact in melee, as presented by Stevie, would only improve its performance of wedge formations. An excellent idea, but one that brought the thread in a different direction with the addition of LH.
If we could bring the discussion back to knights, wedge formation, either 3Kn or 6Kn, this would be nice.
|
|