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Post by stevie on Feb 25, 2021 14:14:38 GMT
Page 31, “Troop Definitions”, says:-
“/” between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that either can be used by all (not some of) those elements.
If between a mounted and a foot type it directs that all (not some of) the mounted type can be replaced
by the foot type before deployment.”
My question concerns that last bit...”before deployment”.
For example: I am the invader and have say 4 x 3Kn/4Bd in my army.
Since the defender places the terrain and deploys first, can I then decide to have all (not some of) my 4 x 3Kn
placed as 4 x 4Bd, once I’ve seen the battlefield and defender’s layout, as it’s “before (my) deployment”?
(Or is this another case of the rules saying one thing but meaning something else?)
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Post by chaotic on Feb 25, 2021 21:23:49 GMT
Since the defender places the terrain and deploys first, can I then decide to have all (not some of) my 4 x 3Kn placed as 4 x 4Bd, once I’ve seen the battlefield and defender’s layout, as it’s “ before (my) deployment”? Yes. The strict, literal interpretation is correct of course. However some Tournament Organisers in Australia are now insisting that players choose 12 elements upon registration, to be used for all games. Another unfortunate trend is to prohibit allies. This is apparently to make registration easier and to "level the playing field" a bit. I don't like either restriction, so I guess my purism streak is showing.  |
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Post by stevie on Feb 25, 2021 23:40:14 GMT
Thanks for that Chaotic.
If the intention was meant that you had to decide before you saw the battlefield,
then surely the entry in the Army Lists would have been “4 x knights (all 3Kn or all 4Bd)”...
...but page 31 specificity states that you can decide just before you deploy.
It seems that the rules are trying to cover three different situations:-
a) troops that must be decided upon when selecting army composition (i.e “Ps/3Ax” and the like),
b) those that can decide what to be just before you deploy them (i.e “3Kn/4Bd” and similar troops),
c) and those that can dismount during a battle (i.e. those designated as “xx//yy”)
I can fully understand why some tournament organisers would wish to limit these options,
as they may deem them to be too powerful...but they should also admit that they are not
‘playing-by-the-rules-as-written’.
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 26, 2021 8:12:54 GMT
Thanks for that Chaotic. If the intention was meant that you had to decide before you saw the battlefield, then surely the entry in the Army Lists would have been “4 x knights (all 3Kn or all 4Bd)”... ...but page 31 specificity states that you can decide just before you deploy. It seems that the rules are trying to cover three different situations:- a) troops that must be decided upon when selecting army composition (i.e “Ps/3Ax” and the like), b) those that can decide what to be just before you deploy them (i.e “3Kn/4Bd” and similar troops), c) and those that can dismount during a battle (i.e. those designated as “xx//yy”) I can fully understand why some tournament organisers would wish to limit these options, as they may deem them to be too powerful...but they should also admit that they are not ‘playing-by-the-rules-as-written’. No stevie. Page 31 doesn't specifically state that you can decide "just before you deploy". It says "before deployment". So the question is "when does deployment start?" Is it: a) when the army - or individual element - in question is placed on the table? b) when the defender places the first element of their army? c) some other point? Supporters of (c) might reasonably point out that the section in the rules which covers deployment starts with "Each side dices and adds the aggression factor of its army to the score....", i.e. before the battlefield has been created. One cannot abuse linguistic analysis to argue that because the lists don't use the formula "4 x Knights (all 3Kn or all 4Bd)", the writer cannot possibly have meant that the choice had to be made before seeing the battlefield. (A slightly stronger argument is that because the rules distinguish between a "/" between two types of foot elements and one between mounted and foot, some difference must have been intended, but I'm not sure even that is conclusive.) I am going to suggest that, for a friendly game, as long as both players agree, it doesn't really matter. For a competition, you accept the organizer's ruling. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 26, 2021 9:07:58 GMT
Ah, I take your point Menacussecundas.
However, if 3Kn/4Bd have to decide in advance what they will be, prior to the aggression roll,
then they are exactly the same as Ps/3Ax...so what is the point of the page 31 special ruling
that says they can decide “before deployment”?
(I am assuming that rules are there for a purpose, and we shouldn’t just ignore the ones we
find inconvenient...unless House Ruling of course)
An alternative is that 3Kn/4Bd type troops get to decide what to be once terrain has been placed,
but before either side has begun deploying. This makes sense, as what commander is going to say
“today we will fight on foot” before he has even seen the terrain that he will be fighting over!
Hence my question to the community...the rule is there, but what exactly does it mean?
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Post by sheffmark on Feb 26, 2021 10:31:29 GMT
Personally I would support Stevie's last answer to his own question, i.e. deployment starts with the laying down of the first element. Therefore the decision over whether using mounted or foot should be made just before then.
I take Menacussecundas' point about the Deployment section starting with dicing to decide defender and aggressor, but would argue that the second sentence of the second paragraph says "Then the defender deploys its troop elements..." so would suggest that's when deployment actually starts, as it also makes more sense for the general to see the terrain before deciding whether to be mounted or not.
However I also agree with Menacussecundas last comment that you either agree between you or leave it to the organiser.
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Post by stevie on Feb 26, 2021 12:18:07 GMT
i.e. deployment starts with the laying down of the first element. Therefore the decision over whether using mounted or foot should be made just before then. I can live with that Sheffmark. And who knows...perhaps that was the original intent all along... |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 26, 2021 13:03:10 GMT
Since the defender places the terrain and deploys first, can I then decide to have all (not some of) my 4 x 3Kn placed as 4 x 4Bd, once I’ve seen the battlefield and defender’s layout, as it’s “ before (my) deployment”? Yes. The strict, literal interpretation is correct of course. However some Tournament Organisers in Australia are now insisting that players choose 12 elements upon registration, to be used for all games. Another unfortunate trend is to prohibit allies. This is apparently to make registration easier and to "level the playing field" a bit. I don't like either restriction, so I guess my purism streak is showing. We don't play that way in the the events I have run/played in. We play RAW that the player can decide whether to deploy as the Bd or Kn when they are placed on the battlefield. Allies are welcome as they increase the viability of many armies in events and honestly make the game even more interesting. |
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Post by ronisan on Feb 26, 2021 13:52:38 GMT
Page 31, “Troop Definitions”, says:- “/” between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that either can be used by all (not some of) those elements. If between a mounted and a foot type it directs that all (not some of) the mounted type can be replaced by the foot type before deployment.” My question concerns that last bit...” before deployment”. For example: I am the invader and have say 4 x 3Kn/4Bd in my army. Since the defender places the terrain and deploys first, can I then decide to have all (not some of) my 4 x 3Kn placed as 4 x 4Bd, once I’ve seen the battlefield and defender’s layout, as it’s “ before (my) deployment”? (Or is this another case of the rules saying one thing but meaning something else?)Hi Stevie, well - as you mentioned above „... can be replaced by the foot type before deployment“... it doesn‘t say „before being deployed“! Now what is deployment? -> Deployment ist explained on page 8 under its own headline of „Deployment“. And deployment starts by each side dicing for aggression! So - replacing mounted elements by foot elements should be done after placing terrain and before dicing for aggression. Cheers, Ronald |
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Post by martin on Feb 26, 2021 14:14:41 GMT
Page 31, “Troop Definitions”, says:- “/” between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that either can be used by all (not some of) those elements. If between a mounted and a foot type it directs that all (not some of) the mounted type can be replaced by the foot type before deployment.” My question concerns that last bit...” before deployment”. For example: I am the invader and have say 4 x 3Kn/4Bd in my army. Since the defender places the terrain and deploys first, can I then decide to have all (not some of) my 4 x 3Kn placed as 4 x 4Bd, once I’ve seen the battlefield and defender’s layout, as it’s “ before (my) deployment”? (Or is this another case of the rules saying one thing but meaning something else?)Hi Stevie, well - as you mentioned above „... can be replaced by the foot type before deployment“... it doesn‘t say „before being deployed“! Now what is deployment? -> Deployment ist explained on page 8 under its own headline of „Deployment“. And deployment starts by each side dicing for aggression! So - replacing mounted elements by foot elements should be done after placing terrain and before dicing for aggression. Cheers, Ronald That might prove difficult ....as placing terrain is done after the aggression /‘who’s the defender’ roll off. It’s a confusing part of the process. As far as I recall, when the players I’ve encountered do this any dismounting of xxx/yyy elements happens as the troops go onto the table. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 26, 2021 15:19:15 GMT
Yes, as Martin has pointed out, how can the terrain be placed before the aggression roll?
Who places it?
There appears to be three different attitudes to this “before deployment” issue:-
❶ Some like to decide when the element is actually placed on the wargames table...
(which is a bit harsh on the defender, as the invader can arrange better match-ups)
❷ Some don’t like the idea at all, and prefer that the choice be made in advance...
(during element selection, like other troops, and just ignore the Page 31 rule)
❸ And some like the idea of a compromise between these two attitudes...
(and treat “before deployment” to mean “before both army's deployment phase”)
It looks like we will all have to decide for ourselves which procedure we adopt...
...unless the FAQ Team comes up with a definitive answer.
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Post by ronisan on Feb 26, 2021 16:26:25 GMT
Hi guys, you‘re right ... I‘m wrong... of course Aggression dicing comes first. Cheers, Ronald
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Post by scottrussell on Feb 27, 2021 20:33:41 GMT
Is the issue not somewhat broader than this? When is the entire army composition decided?
After a somewhat fractious discussion with a member of our club, who would try to see your army before deciding on his own, I asked of the community (when the rules were version 2.2), how this was usually managed for friendly games. Long standing member Bob Beattie, pointed me to the relevant section of the rules, which appear to be the same in version 3.0.
Deployment (abridged version!):
Dice for aggression.
Defender places terrain
Invader selects a base edge.
Defender places camp
Attacker places camp
Defender deploys elements
Attacker deploys elements
etc.etc.etc.
So under RAW there is no need for the attacker even to choose his/her army composition in friendly games, (or even for the first round of a tournament, see p 13) until the defender has deployed his/her entire army.
This was not how we played it. As a rule one player would produce two armies and give the opponent the choice. But as Bob said, these are the rules.
Scott
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Post by chaotic on Feb 27, 2021 22:25:22 GMT
As a rule one player would produce two armies and give the opponent the choice. But as Bob said, these are the rules. Scott This kind of tournament is still played occasionally and remains a suggested tournament format in 3.0, as well as in earlier editions. I think it is a very good format, however it does create a bit of a barrier for entry level players who might only have one army. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 28, 2021 1:20:34 GMT
Scott does raise an interesting point...
...and the bit he refers to is the second sentence at the top of page 13:-
“(For Tournaments) Army composition and allies must be declared at
the start of the first game and cannot be changed between games;
except that an element listed as /or // can be deployed at the start
of each game as either mounted or dismounted.”
This does imply that army composition (be it in a friendly game or as
part of a competition) must be decided upon before the aggression roll,
and certainly before you see the defender’s layout!
Allowing the invader to chose as they place their troops, after seeing the
defender’s set-up, would be a powerful advantage...which perhaps is why
some tournament organisers disallow it, as it could lead to the 3Kn/4Bd
combo dominating tournaments.
Yes, we should play by the rules...but that means playing by ALL the rules,
and not just those that we like or have misinterpreted.
(In short, a ‘/’ between a mounted and foot element only applies in tournaments.
In friendly games you must decide at the start of the game, before the aggression roll)
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