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Post by Cromwell on Nov 14, 2020 20:03:55 GMT
The Anglo Saxon Army IV/62B has 1 x General Bld 2 x Bld, 4xSelect Fryd Spear, 4 x Great Fryd (Spear/7Horde)
If I read that correctly I can have a total of 8 Spear elements. I have played a couple of battles against the Saxons with the Norman Army IV/62a and the spear elements with their +1 for flank support seems to make them pretty invincible against knights.
In Sue Barkers book she describes the 4 x Great Fryd Spear as the less well ordered troops better represented by 7 Horde, I am beginning to see why, because with the option of having them spears they fight to the same level as their Select Fryd counterparts.
To give a more realistic feel should I go with 4 x 7Horde for the Great Fryd or keep them as spear but make a house rule they cannot receive or give side support?
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Post by stevie on Nov 15, 2020 0:56:02 GMT
Er...Spears don’t get side support when fighting Knights. Page 11, paragraph 2, Flank Support, says:- “Some ‘Solid’ elements add +1 when in frontal close combat in good going against enemy foot...”
Spears are actually slightly weaker than Blades. When a Blade is double overlapped (they like to pursue) they are CF 5-2 v Spears CF 4 +1. And CF 3 v CF 5 has 6 chances out of 36 of being doubled and destroyed.
When Spears in the same situation are double overlapped they are CF 4-2 v Blades CF 5. And CF 2 v CF 5 has 12 chances out of 36 of being doubled and destroyed. (Not forgetting Spears also lose their side support in rough going)
I find that 7Hd are far too weak and are effectively useless. Yes, they don’t recoil, but they always pursue, getting their weak CF of 3 double overlapped.
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Post by paulhannah on Nov 15, 2020 2:40:58 GMT
Pay no attention to Stevie's sensible recommendation. Take the Hordes! Why? Let me count just some of the myriad reasons. - You get to paint more figures.
- Hordes move for free. (Well, they do when pursuing.)
- They rarely recoil.
- Their loss is shruggable.
- Sometimes opponents forget that and actually think they're winning.
- When Hordes actually help you win, you've got some serious bragging rights.
- Did I mention you get to paint more figures?
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Post by paulisper on Nov 15, 2020 8:44:19 GMT
Pay no attention to Stevie's sensible recommendation. Take the Hordes! Why? Let me count just some of the myriad reasons. - You get to paint more figures.
- Hordes move for free. (Well, they do when pursuing.)
- They rarely recoil.
- Their loss is shruggable.
- Sometimes opponents forget that and actually think they're winning.
- When Hordes actually help you win, you've got some serious bragging rights.
- Did I mention you get to paint more figures?
And they can look damn cool 😎 P
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Post by Cromwell on Nov 15, 2020 9:24:23 GMT
Er...Spears don’t get side support when fighting Knights. Page 11, paragraph 2, Flank Support, says:- “Some ‘Solid’ elements add +1 when in frontal close combat in good going against enemy foot...” Spears are actually slightly weaker than Blades. When a Blade is double overlapped (they like to pursue) they are CF 5-2 v Spears CF 4 +1. And CF 3 v CF 5 has 6 chances out of 36 of being doubled and destroyed. When Spears in the same situation are double overlapped they are CF 4-2 v Blades CF 5. And CF 2 v CF 5 has 12 chances out of 36 of being doubled and destroyed. (Not forgetting Spears also lose their side support in rough going)I find that 7Hd are far too weak and are effectively useless. Yes, they don’t recoil, but they always pursue, getting their weak CF of 3 double overlapped. I now see my problem. I was giving spears side support against everything. No wonder they appeared to be invincible! So am I correct now to say Spears only get side support in good going against foot NOT mounted?
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Post by stevie on Nov 15, 2020 11:34:39 GMT
Yep, that’s about the size of it Cromwell me old matey. An interesting question is what is the best terrain to use when Hordes face Knights, as they are hopeless in flat good going (CF 2 v CF 3 = 21 chances of being destroyed!). Up a gentle hill the 7Hd are CF 2+1 v CF 3, so 15 chances out of 36 of being destroyed (plus 6 chances of holding their ground and 15 chances of pursuing). In rough going the 7Hd are CF 2 v CF 3, but Kn lose their ‘quick kill’, so only 6 chances of being destroyed (plus 20 chances of holding their ground and 10 chances of pursuing). Thus when Hordes face Knights the lesson is clear... ...rough untrained peasants need rough hindering terrain.
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 10, 2021 12:29:23 GMT
What do you guys recommend for the best base depth for Hordes?
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Post by sheffmark on Feb 10, 2021 13:45:58 GMT
All my Horde are 30mm deep and even with 7 Hd you can generally get most figures on in a sort of rabble style layout.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 10, 2021 14:23:40 GMT
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Post by lkmjbc on Feb 10, 2021 17:13:49 GMT
Very nice!
Joe Collins
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Post by gregorius on Feb 10, 2021 22:44:45 GMT
What do you guys recommend for the best base depth for Hordes? For Fast Hd 30mm and 40mm for Solid Hd. Cheers,
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 11, 2021 0:28:30 GMT
Thanks for the replies lads, it does seem pretty open to individual taste. Since I'm doing 7Hd the 40mm depth seems to fit and I like the idea of 5Hd being on the 30mm depth.
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Post by paddy649 on Feb 11, 2021 7:43:27 GMT
I use 30mm bases for both. 5 figs for fast Horde and 7 figs for solid Horde. This works well.
I note that the rules state that “players should keep as closely as possible to the minimum base depths recommended.” And that larger base depths “accommodate figures based for other rule sets or over-large figures.” This to me implies that when the rules state a range of base depths then the lower value should be used wherever possible.
So if you have an army that uses 20mm deep bases for Spears or Blades - is it cheating? Well no provided the figures aren’t based for DBA or can’t fit on 15mm bases........but if you have built an army specifically for DBA and the figures can fit on the smaller base but you have decided to base them on the larger bases for purely tactical reasons - is this now cheating?
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Post by stevie on Feb 11, 2021 9:12:38 GMT
Hmmm...that is a interesting point Paddy.
Some would say that if you follow the rules, how can that be ‘cheating’? Gaining a tactical advantage, yes, but if it’s within the rules, why not?
The rules allow for two different table sizes for example, and although Phil Barker prefers the smaller size, the larger wider table does give mounted armies a tactical advantage, permitting more outflanking, whereas the smaller table artificially hamstrings them into often making purely frontal attacks.
Personally, I have all my heavy foot on bases ½ a BW deep because I hate it when figures or their weapons overhang their base edges. This also means that when they recoil they automatically form up into nice neat straight lines with lighter foot, denying my opponent overlaps. Exploitative?...perhaps...but it’s within the rules...and my opponent could do the same if they wanted.
Indeed, is having more than the recommended number of figures per base a form of ‘cheating’, as Timurilank has done with his 7Hd and Paulhannah has done with his 4Pk? It doesn’t make them fight any better, it just looks nice, but a purist could claim that they give a false psychological advantage as they look more intimidating. (Although I hope that most players, like me, would say to hell with what they rules state...they look fantastic!)
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 11, 2021 9:20:46 GMT
I use 30mm bases for both. 5 figs for fast Horde and 7 figs for solid Horde. This works well. I note that the rules state that “players should keep as closely as possible to the minimum base depths recommended.” And that larger base depths “accommodate figures based for other rule sets or over-large figures.” This to me implies that when the rules state a range of base depths then the lower value should be used wherever possible. So if you have an army that uses 20mm deep bases for Spears or Blades - is it cheating? Well no provided the figures aren’t based for DBA or can’t fit on 15mm bases........but if you have built an army specifically for DBA and the figures can fit on the smaller base but you have decided to base them on the larger bases for purely tactical reasons - is this now cheating? No. It's heresy.
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