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Post by shrimplyamazing on Oct 27, 2020 5:40:57 GMT
Hi Everyone, I liked the idea in Age of Hannibal to have mystery stratagem cards that one can play. I think it makes for a good way of representing tactics that may have occurred in history on occasion, but would be too overpowered or complicated to build into the rules as something that can happen all the time (Like littoral landings for instance, It seems kind of dumb that you can do that every game). So basically the way it works is you draw from a deck of stratagems that has different kinds of stratagem as well as numerous 'bluff' cards which don't actually do anything. each player draws 1-3 cards (whatever you feel is appropriate, less if you dont want the game to be too crazy) in secret and they can play them at any time when appropriate. Some things I've given a 3+ dice roll requirement so that even if you get the card, you can't always be sure that your stratagem or ploy will be successful. Here is the list of the ones i've thought up, but really you can make them anything to fit what flavour scenarios you're doing. HOLD FAST Play this after any individual combat, 1 'recoil' result may be turned into a 'no effect' result. RALLY Play this after any individual combat, 1 'flee' or 'destroyed' result may be turned into a 'recoil' result. SCOUTS Play this at the start of your first bound, if successful, the other player must reveal any Flank March or Ambush card LOCAL GUIDES Play this when a friendly element attempts to move through the desired BAD or ROUGH going. this terrain piece is treated as GOOD going for this player, but only in regards to movement (BAD going still gives -2 for combat) AMBUSH up to 2 elements may be left off the table for deployment. When an enemy contacts the desired BAD going, or during the players movement phase, deploy these elements completely within the bad going. TROOP SWAP Play this during your movement phase. 1 element or group is deemed completely interpenetrable by all troop types for this movement phase only. STRATEGIC RETREAT Play this in a bound before any combat has been resolved. one element in contact with the enemy can retreat up to 2 BW. the enemy contacted pursues and remains in combat with the element. Combat is resolved as usual. QUICK TURN Play this during your movement phase for 1 PIP. The front element of a column turns forward, 90 degrees. other members in the column match the first elements orientation, forming a group beside or behind the other elements. no element can move greater than its move distance. FLANK MARCH (RIGHT) up to 1/4 of army may be left off the table for deployment. When this card is played, the elements are deployed as a group within 2 BW of the player's RIGHT board edge (If waterway, then only if army is Littoral) FLANK MARCH (LEFT) up to 1/4 of army may be left off the table for deployment. When this card is played, the elements are deployed as a group within 2 BW of the player's LEFT board edge (If waterway, then only if army is Littoral) BLUFF no effect Heres a link of them laid out like cards if you'd like to print them off and give it a try: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GNS6VQHMf5D7ZXRlnx-B7my2B2IDMSIoCwWK4FFKdUE/edit?usp=sharingoverall, just something that fits between the concept of a particular scenario with special events, and a regular game where you want to be surprised a little! as you might also notice the Flank march can be used to replace the littoral landing rule so that it wont happen all the time and has some risk to it (you could lose 3 troops lost at sea!  ) |
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Post by greedo on Oct 27, 2020 16:34:07 GMT
Age of Hannibal has some very interesting ideas, especially around terrain and the stratagems.
Also interesting as it uses DBx based mechanisms (fantasy rules!) with hit markers on elements.
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Post by Baldie on Oct 27, 2020 16:36:03 GMT
Like the idea for a friendly game.
AOH on order
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Post by greedo on Oct 27, 2020 17:52:08 GMT
Like the idea for a friendly game. AOH on order its older so misses some of the interesting elements of DBA 3.0. All square bases, no rear support, specific elements attributes you can add (veterans, legionary drill, hoplite drill etc), side support for everyone, and everybody has 2 hits so you have to have chits on everything.. |
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Post by jim1973 on Oct 27, 2020 23:13:25 GMT
I certainly like this idea. Here is the list of stratagems PB uses in DBMM:
- Scouting
- Guides
- Betrayal
- Changing Deployment
- Flank Attack
- Exaggerating Army Size
- False Reinforcements
- Disguised Troops
- Hidden Obstacles
- Delaying Battle
- Concealed Command
- Unusual Troops
- Feigned Flight
- Ambush
There are some limitations on who can use what and where. Some only make sense if you use other rules like time and weather. But some could walk straight into DBA 3.
I agree with you regarding littoral landings and the fact that they are available every game involving littoral armies and a waterway. They are the only stratagem we have in DBA 3 and because they are available so often blunts their value. Once you have some experience with them you can easily counter them with your deployment, often using a L shaped deployment that just looks wrong. They don't provide any excitement. But if they only occurred on a roll of "6", otherwise the elements were put back into the line, then you would have a real decision to make at deployment and you could get the occasional "Wow" moment. That's why this card system with the bluffs is quite appealing. I would have lots of bluffs so that players expect a normal game but on occasion they will get a real surprise.
I think DBA 3 is robust enough to handle these sorts of rules. If you watch Tony's videos on the Collision Course rules you see that deployment can be made more variable and therefore add to the game without fundamentally changing the rules. Sort of an "Advanced DBA 3" if you will. But that is for house rules only.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by shrimplyamazing on Oct 28, 2020 3:17:22 GMT
Age of Hannibal has some very interesting ideas, especially around terrain and the stratagems. Also interesting as it uses DBx based mechanisms (fantasy rules!) with hit markers on elements. yeah its quite similar to DBA, I preference DBA over it for two reasons. Firstly, I'd like to avoid any sort of markers on the table as it looks nicer without and secondly, the way the morale clock works as written seems to make closer battles go on for wayy too long. the simplicity of the 4 elements and you lose means that armies route at a bit more realistic point in my opinion. oh also the rules have had less time to be polished than DBA so there are some situations in the game that the rules arent clear on still. I also agree with Jim that a lot of Bluffs in this card system is good that it builds tension and leaves these special moments and tactics as special moments and tactics rather than constant gimmicks that break realism. |
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Post by greedo on Oct 28, 2020 16:00:59 GMT
Age of Hannibal has some very interesting ideas, especially around terrain and the stratagems. Also interesting as it uses DBx based mechanisms (fantasy rules!) with hit markers on elements. yeah its quite similar to DBA, I preference DBA over it for two reasons. Firstly, I'd like to avoid any sort of markers on the table as it looks nicer without and secondly, the way the morale clock works as written seems to make closer battles go on for wayy too long. the simplicity of the 4 elements and you lose means that armies route at a bit more realistic point in my opinion. oh also the rules have had less time to be polished than DBA so there are some situations in the game that the rules arent clear on still. I also agree with Jim that a lot of Bluffs in this card system is good that it builds tension and leaves these special moments and tactics as special moments and tactics rather than constant gimmicks that break realism. Agree 100% on the chits. It's nice to represent degradation of the army gradually without any kind of marker. No record keeping. The morale clock is an interesting idea, but the fact that it always starts at 10 regardless of the army size I think might need modification. As an aside, my path to DBA (and historicals in general) was Warhammer Fantasy Battle, then Fantasy Rules! (which AoH is based on), which is DBx in nature, because I wanted something different for my fantasy troops, and then when I wanted to do Hopiltes, it turned into DBA. So DBA/x was my introduction to historical wargaming. |
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Post by Baldie on Oct 28, 2020 17:36:08 GMT
yeah its quite similar to DBA, I preference DBA over it for two reasons. Firstly, I'd like to avoid any sort of markers on the table as it looks nicer without and secondly, the way the morale clock works as written seems to make closer battles go on for wayy too long. the simplicity of the 4 elements and you lose means that armies route at a bit more realistic point in my opinion. oh also the rules have had less time to be polished than DBA so there are some situations in the game that the rules arent clear on still. I also agree with Jim that a lot of Bluffs in this card system is good that it builds tension and leaves these special moments and tactics as special moments and tactics rather than constant gimmicks that break realism. Agree 100% on the chits. It's nice to represent degradation of the army gradually without any kind of marker. No record keeping. The morale clock is an interesting idea, but the fact that it always starts at 10 regardless of the army size I think might need modification. As an aside, my path to DBA (and historicals in general) was Warhammer Fantasy Battle, then Fantasy Rules! (which AoH is based on), which is DBx in nature, because I wanted something different for my fantasy troops, and then when I wanted to do Hopiltes, it turned into DBA. So DBA/x was my introduction to historical wargaming. Ditto |
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Post by eg407 on Oct 29, 2020 9:47:01 GMT
Going back to the original point. What would be the mechanism to stop people from drawing 3 cards every game? Would you loose an element per card drawn? Or the opponent could get a free move?
Also I do like the bluff cards. Makes it more of a push one's luck mechanic.
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Post by shrimplyamazing on Oct 30, 2020 0:23:49 GMT
Going back to the original point. What would be the mechanism to stop people from drawing 3 cards every game? Would you loose an element per card drawn? Or the opponent could get a free move? Also I do like the bluff cards. Makes it more of a push one's luck mechanic. if you mean stop people from drawing 3 cards that are impactful on the game every game, thats why you have the bluff cards so it decreases the likelihood, the having to roll a 3+ when you play it for it to work also means that its not guaranteed to happen. If you mean what would stop people drawing 3 cards, that is up to the players. My suggestion was that players would agree beforehand that they wanted to draw X amount of cards for the game and draw them at the start of the game. 3 cards to me seems to be an interesting enough amount that means even after they've played a card theres still potentially another non-bluff card in their hand that they might use. but 3 cards would increase the likelihood of events happening, so if people want a game where that sort of thing happens very rarely they could draw only 1-2 cards. I'd assume that choice would be a general agreed rule between players or a group rather than drawing different amount of cards on a game-by-game basis. also I dont think this would be something for tournament play, its really just a way of getting around having to construct tournament quality rules (in terms of balance) for every single fancy maneuver or strategy by having it be a card. |
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Post by eg407 on Oct 30, 2020 7:20:45 GMT
Hi,
I unterstand what you mean. It is not an Idee for a tournament play, unlike the similar things in DBMM.
But even in friendly play, there is still a chance that one player can draw three strategy cards with strategies on while their opponent only gets three bluff cards. And while I don't mind an unbalanced game (we've recently played a lot of 9vs12 games in our little campaign), I think having three strategies played against one would/could break the game. So I was wondering if there could be something small for the opposing player of a strategy card is drawn or played. Like in DBMM, where the strategies cost army points. So taking one means your army is likely 2-4 elements smaller than it could be.
In terms of needing to roll a 3+, a 50/50 chance is one I'd take. But, one thought. What would happen to any troops who are positioned for a strategy that doesn't happen?
Best,
EG
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Post by shrimplyamazing on Oct 30, 2020 9:20:04 GMT
most of them are small benefits that combined with the small chance of them occuring doesn't seem so bad. remember that while bluffs don't have an actual impact on the game, they are bluffs so having three bluff cards means your opponent needs to be prepared in case they aren't bluffs. also depending on how you play it, one could chose to not deploy 1-2 troops when they only have bluff cards to make their opponent think they have a flank/ambush card. so they'd lose an element but their opponent wouldnt think its really lost until the game is over!
if you failed the roll, the troops would be lost I think. thats part of the risk (also 3+ is a 66% chance of success). they could get lost of distracted by other forces in their attempted flank. thats why its only a 1/4 of troops max so you cant lose all 4 elements from it.
but again, people can adapt these to however they want with custom cards however they wish
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Post by decebalus on Oct 30, 2020 10:10:40 GMT
The last years we always have presented a big DBA game (28mm) for the wargaming convention Tactica in Hamburg, Germany. Here as an example is a link to the pictures of our Neuss 1474/75 game (Germans against Burgund). www.hamburger-tactica.de/?p=15710Besides having special rules we always have cards, that give historical flavour (In our Arsouf game for example, there was a card that made one combat of Richard Lionheart +1, that gave Saladin the option to move troops very fast, to let Sarazen cavalry dismount etc.). It is a nice and simple option to give the sometimes abstract and a little bland DBA rules some spice. We usually give every player one card at the start. He can draw another card, if he has rolled 1 PIP. It is a little compensation for the bad roll. |
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Post by greedo on Nov 4, 2020 7:23:49 GMT
Hey, I thought of a new Strategem Card based on Braveheart  I call it "hold..Hold..NOW!!": "Turn any foot element that you choose into any other foot element that you choose at ANY time, including in your opponent's bound, but before combat is resolved. May be used only once." So that 4Ax or 4Wb that is facing down a charging unit of 3Kn suddenly turns itself into a 4Sp right when they make contact, by pulling up a bunch of "Spears. Twice as tall as a mahn.." |
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Mr.E
Beneficiarii
New comer to DBA
Posts: 82
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Post by Mr.E on Oct 24, 2021 19:18:29 GMT
Hello i think the stratagèmes card are really good idea , in order to play them i just design them on one A4 paper add James Tissot artwork to it, so you can print the files on cardstock should be better PDF are located here ; Stratagems Card Version 1i m confuse regarding Ambush card how it should be played?  |
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