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Post by chaotic on Jul 18, 2020 23:49:36 GMT
Often in DBA, its the apparently simple rules that are implemented inconsistently. The one I'm interested in at the moment is the rule giving an advantage for being uphill in close combat.
The relevant bits are:
Page 6: An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going. All hills slope up to a centre line crest and give a close combat advantage if part of an element’s front edge is upslope of all of its opponent.
Page 11: +1 If in close combat; and ... uphill ...
Interpretations - to gain the +1:
1. some people require the entire element to be on a hill and higher than an opponent that is also at least partly on the hill;
2. others require the uphill element's front edge to be entirely on the hill, and at least partly uphill of the opponent, who may or may not be on the hill;
3. and finally, the uphill element may be partly on the hill, with only part of the front edge uphill of an opponent.
There may be other options, but I haven't seen them in games. The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to believe Option 3. is the intent, but I rarely see the rule interpreted this way. I'm interested in the consensus opinion.
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Post by Cromwell on Jul 19, 2020 7:08:31 GMT
The other thing that has to me always seemed a bit strange is that mounted also have the uphill advantage.
In fact horses far prefer to gallop, trot or canter uphill than down. A horses power house is in the hind quarters, the front quarters are comparatively weak and do not make for very good brakes going down hill. Also going down hill unbalances a horse.
Just my fourpenny worth as a horseman of over 55 years (well not actually 55 years. I did get off for toilet breaks and when visiting the cinema).
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 19, 2020 8:18:53 GMT
Just my fourpenny worth as a horseman of over 55 years (well not actually 55 years. I did get off for toilet breaks and when visiting the cinema). No ride in cinemas?  Cheers Jim |
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Post by stevie on Jul 19, 2020 12:08:43 GMT
I’m an Option 3 man myself...
...the uphill element may be partly on the hill, with only part of the front edge uphill of an opponent.
By the way, my little group of DBA 3.0 players gave up using hill ‘ridge lines’ some time ago following
disagreements as to who is uphill or not when elements are facing at 90° right angles to the ‘ridge line',
which frequently happens on circular hills.
Instead we use ‘hill peak points’, and whoever has their front-edge closest to this ‘peak point’ is the one
that is higher up the hill...from ALL directions.
As for Cromwell’s horses moving downhill - I’d like to know how ancient wheeled vehicles facing down-slope
on a gentle hill, such as chariots, prevented themselves from automatically rolling all the way to the bottom
of said hill before brakes were invented! 🤪
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Post by Baldie on Jul 19, 2020 16:29:41 GMT
Best way seems to be to decide before game with opponent.
For me the point on hill to decide where it is highest then whoever is closest gets advantage.
A BUA on a difficult hill with a river flowing through it would be great.
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Post by Cromwell on Jul 20, 2020 6:57:31 GMT
Just my fourpenny worth as a horseman of over 55 years (well not actually 55 years. I did get off for toilet breaks and when visiting the cinema). No ride in cinemas? Cheers Jim A whole different story, not suitable for this forum! |
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Post by Cromwell on Jul 20, 2020 7:01:10 GMT
As for Cromwell’s horses moving downhill - I’d like to know how ancient wheeled vehicles facing down-slope on a gentle hill, such as chariots, prevented themselves from automatically rolling all the way to the bottom of said hill before brakes were invented! 🤪 Perhaps that is how we got the term "Brake Horsepower"   |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jul 20, 2020 11:52:21 GMT
I have never played with anyone face-to-face that played any option other than 1 (even in other areas of the country like when we travel to Historicon.)
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Post by sheffmark on Jul 20, 2020 12:30:15 GMT
As Chaotic quotes, the rules say you get plus one if "part of an element’s front edge is upslope of all of its opponent"
So according to the rules it doesn't matter if part of the enemy is upslope of part of your element, or indeed where the enemy element is, whether it's on the hill or not, so long as you have part of your front edge upslope of all of the enemy element, you count as up hill.
Following a tournament in Bakewell I think there was a discussion that concluded, if you draw an imaginary line from the centre point of the hill to the centre point of the two elements in combat, whichever element the line goes through first should be uphill.
Obviously this can give the very strange situation where if you have a toe on a hill and everything else is on the flat then you still get up hill, but I think that's what the rules say! So I agree with Stevie, option 3.
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Post by scottrussell on Jul 20, 2020 18:01:00 GMT
When you think about it, the wording is rather strange. The two front edges meet at a line. Unless they are absolutely across the hill, however defined, such that all of the front edge is uphill of all of the opponent's front edge, then only an infinitesimally small part of the front edge is actually uphill of all of the opponent's and most of it in fact has part of the opponent's front edge uphill of it.
My presumption is that the rule is worded in that way to account for the fact that all of the front edge might not be on the hill at all, but part of it is, and that bit is uphill of all of the opponent's front edge.
So option 3.
Scott
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Post by chaotic on Jul 20, 2020 21:34:00 GMT
I have never played with anyone face-to-face that played any option other than 1 (even in other areas of the country like when we travel to Historicon.) Tony, it was your DBA video series that raised this issue for me. They are extremely influential in showing new players, and even a lot of not-so-new players, how the game should be played. They are a great initiative and i hope you keep them coming. However I was concerned at the inevitable small variations that were creeping into the game. Things like this don't matter when both players agree, but they can cause difficulties in tournaments so I was keen to see if this issue could be resolved. |
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Post by martin on Jul 21, 2020 12:56:33 GMT
Diades on this forum started up/ contributed greatly to a thread on this form, about a year or so ago. The conclusion was not the one Tony A. advocates.....not sure where the thread ended up.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jul 21, 2020 13:02:27 GMT
I have never played with anyone face-to-face that played any option other than 1 (even in other areas of the country like when we travel to Historicon.) Tony, it was your DBA video series that raised this issue for me. They are extremely influential in showing new players, and even a lot of not-so-new players, how the game should be played. They are a great initiative and i hope you keep them coming. However I was concerned at the inevitable small variations that were creeping into the game. Things like this don't matter when both players agree, but they can cause difficulties in tournaments so I was keen to see if this issue could be resolved. This might be a continental difference. I don't care either way what the interpretation is, just wanted to state that I have never seen anyone play it any other way. Maybe it is a hold over from 2.2 as those of us who played many games of DBA 2.2 find ourselves have to unlearn what we have practiced over the years. In the past I have brought up issues like this to the FAQ group, but the last two times it seems to go nowhere. In order to avoid frustration, I have chosen to continue to push forward with how WE play in our videos as I do not want to retrain everyone in vain unless an "official" decision comes down from the FAQ group on this. |
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Post by lkmjbc on Jul 21, 2020 14:38:05 GMT
I don't think we need to worry with this... This has never been an issue in any tournament I have attended or hosted.
I have done a few.
If it gets to be a large issue in tournaments, then the FAQ team can review it again.
Joe Collins
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jul 21, 2020 15:03:52 GMT
Re-looking at the wording in the original question - looks like we do 1 AND 2.
It is really unlikely that the edge of the element can be on the edge of the hill and someone willingly contact them.
Also that edge would have to be straight for that to happen.
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