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Post by greedo on Dec 21, 2019 5:29:45 GMT
I have just seen an announcement from Xyston that they are also joining the PSC stable. The first products from their range should be available in the Spring. Menacus Secundus Woah. Interesting. Do you think they’ll do a reset on the scale to make them all roughly the same size? I do hope the plastic doesn’t diminish their quality. Also does this mean that their DBA armies won’t be available anymore? |
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Post by paddy649 on Dec 21, 2019 8:46:38 GMT
I have just seen an announcement from Xyston that they are also joining the PSC stable. The first products from their range should be available in the Spring. Menacus Secundus Woah. Interesting. Do you think they’ll do a reset on the scale to make them all roughly the same size? I do hope the plastic doesn’t diminish their quality. Also does this mean that their DBA armies won’t be available anymore? Good spot! Lots of news from PSC at the moment who look to be attempting a product development strategy. Just looking at the PSC Facebook post and looking at the practicalities - all they talk about is licensing. So I doubt there will be any resizing. Just as a thought - it would appear that Lurkio and Xyston are pretty much complementary ranges but that Corvus Belli duplicates some ranges - wonder how they will manage that? Also I read on the PSC site an intent to do some of the more esoteric ancient equipment- can’t be bad! I suppose that in the end it is all down to what they put on the sprues and so will have to wait for that! |
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Post by menacussecundus on Dec 21, 2019 9:36:21 GMT
I have just seen an announcement from Xyston that they are also joining the PSC stable. The first products from their range should be available in the Spring. Menacus Secundus Woah. Interesting. Do you think they’ll do a reset on the scale to make them all roughly the same size? I do hope the plastic doesn’t diminish their quality. Also does this mean that their DBA armies won’t be available anymore? I'd be surprised if they were to attempt any re-sizing, but, like Paddy, I really don't know. Xyston's present DBA armies are for 2.2, but whether they'll be kept, scrapped or updated for v3 is anyone's guess. |
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Post by greedo on Dec 22, 2019 21:56:43 GMT
Woah. Interesting. Do you think they’ll do a reset on the scale to make them all roughly the same size? I do hope the plastic doesn’t diminish their quality. Also does this mean that their DBA armies won’t be available anymore? I'd be surprised if they were to attempt any re-sizing, but, like Paddy, I really don't know. Xyston's present DBA armies are for 2.2, but whether they'll be kept, scrapped or updated for v3 is anyone's guess. Well the nice thing about them is for the most part they are the same. The Greeks no longer use 4Ax but whatever. |
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Post by fighting15s on Dec 29, 2019 17:22:44 GMT
The technology that PSC will be using is almost certainly this: www.siocast.com/If so, they will be using existing metal production masters to make silicone moulds that can be used for relatively short run injection moulding of a thermoplastic. So what they will produce is plastic versions of the existing Lurkio/Corvus Belli/Xyston figures. |
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Post by paddy649 on Dec 29, 2019 20:00:07 GMT
Wow! That technology moves the hobby on in leaps and bounds! 85% production cost reduction when compared to pewter is a game changer. It means figure manufacturer can pass on savings to consumers and increase their profits.
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Post by fighting15s on Dec 30, 2019 11:33:45 GMT
Wow! That technology moves the hobby on in leaps and bounds! 85% production cost reduction when compared to pewter is a game changer. It means figure manufacturer can pass on savings to consumers and increase their profits. Actually, one thing I'm not convinced about is the cost saving on the Siocast system. There is a very high upfront cost on machinery, whereas getting into traditional metal casting can be done relatively cheaply. Siocast estimates that its mould life is comparable with mould life for traditional casting, however, the estimate it gives in mould cycles for a tradition mould is way off what I experience. If a traditional mould lasted only 100 spins then figures would be far more expensive (I have some moulds that are over 30 years old but are still good). A traditional 15mm foot figure contains mere pennies worth of metal (pewter is currently around 2p per gramme and tin/lead alloys are cheaper); a plastic figure will have material costs of fractions of a penny. Percentage-wise, that may be a big saving, but the real costs of a figure are the cost of living expenses of the manufacturer (i.e. we need to make a certain amount of money to stay alive). Materials prices are headaches only because we have to buy metal in large quantities, which can create a cashflow issue. |
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Post by paddy649 on Dec 30, 2019 16:03:56 GMT
Fascinating. I’ve never really analysed the finances of producing war games figures. So how much does the Siocast system cost as opposed to a centrifugal casting machine? Are they comparable? What are the other start up costs of each option? Are the raw material costs of lead/tin allow really that low? 2p per gram seems cheap but how many grams in say 1000 15mm figures? I have no idea! I suppose the real costs are in producing masters and moulds - is that right?
When it comes to making a reasonable profit from making and selling war games figures I don’t think there is a problem. I doubt the margins are that high....I mean I can’t see Philip Green leading a hostile take over!
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Post by fighting15s on Dec 30, 2019 18:06:56 GMT
Fascinating. I’ve never really analysed the finances of producing war games figures. So how much does the Siocast system cost as opposed to a centrifugal casting machine? Are they comparable? What are the other start up costs of each option? Are the raw material costs of lead/tin allow really that low? 2p per gram seems cheap but how many grams in say 1000 15mm figures? I have no idea! I suppose the real costs are in producing masters and moulds - is that right? When it comes to making a reasonable profit from making and selling war games figures I don’t think there is a problem. I doubt the margins are that high....I mean I can’t see Philip Green leading a hostile take over! Siocast's machine is, I understand, about £30,000; a conventional compressor and spin casting machine is under £10,000. I use second-hand bob-weight machines that have cost anything from £450 to £1,200 each, so outlay on equipment can be really low. Siocast is too new for a second-hand option. :-) Mould-making for either in silicone will be comparable (a pair of low temperature silicone discs for a mould is slightly above £20, plus time and skill in making the mould). My last order of pewter was 2p per gramme, but I bought 100kg at once, so that's an outlay of £2,000 in one go; I have, in the past, bought 250kg in one go - and I'm a light user. There is typically 2g to 3g in a 15mm figure. You'd have to make a lot of 15mm figures in plastic using Siocast to pay off the cost of the machine if you were to buy, rather than hire, one: in my view, you'd be better off doing 28mm figures using the technology. On the other hand, Siocast's injection moulding technology is probably less skill intensive than spin-casting. That has attractions. :-) As I say, cost of living is the greatest expense: food, home, utilities, family. That is, ultimately, what a customer is paying for, not the material in the figures nor the manufacturing. |
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Post by sheffmark on Dec 31, 2019 16:39:09 GMT
Without going through every comment on this thread, has anyone questioned the ecological impact of moving from metal to plastic?
This seems to be going in the opposite direction to being eco friendly.
Or are the figures bio-degradable?
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Post by bob on Dec 31, 2019 19:46:37 GMT
Plastic is much lighter to mail. Thus the transportation costs will be less and less carbon usage by trucks and planes making the delivery. I don’t believe plastic is as toxic as metal when handled. We don’t hear about people getting plastic poisoning but there is lead poisoning . As I think of it too, the raw materials being dug up, processed, transported, heated, etc. seem much less eco-friendly than making something out of plastic. Anyone worried about the eco-friendliness of war gaming should be carving their figures out of wood, or using stones as playing pieces.
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Post by redrob on Jan 1, 2020 21:07:18 GMT
Apparently there is to be a collabaration with Xyston too!
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Post by fighting15s on Jan 1, 2020 23:38:24 GMT
Plastic is much lighter to mail. Thus the transportation costs will be less and less carbon usage by trucks and planes making the delivery. I don’t believe plastic is as toxic as metal when handled. We don’t hear about people getting plastic poisoning but there is lead poisoning . As I think of it too, the raw materials being dug up, processed, transported, heated, etc. seem much less eco-friendly than making something out of plastic. Anyone worried about the eco-friendliness of war gaming should be carving their figures out of wood, or using stones as playing pieces. Plastic figures on sprues, however, are bulkier to mail, making an order more likely to require small parcel rates instead of large letter. Bulky light things are currently more expensive to deliver than compact heavy things. Unless there is widespread recycling of plastic sprues, plastic figures will also create more waste: metal sprues are simply put back in the melting pot. |
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Post by paddy649 on Jan 2, 2020 8:37:08 GMT
Fascinating. I’ve never really analysed the finances of producing war games figures. So how much does the Siocast system cost as opposed to a centrifugal casting machine? Are they comparable? What are the other start up costs of each option? Are the raw material costs of lead/tin allow really that low? 2p per gram seems cheap but how many grams in say 1000 15mm figures? I have no idea! I suppose the real costs are in producing masters and moulds - is that right? When it comes to making a reasonable profit from making and selling war games figures I don’t think there is a problem. I doubt the margins are that high....I mean I can’t see Philip Green leading a hostile take over! Siocast's machine is, I understand, about £30,000; a conventional compressor and spin casting machine is under £10,000. I use second-hand bob-weight machines that have cost anything from £450 to £1,200 each, so outlay on equipment can be really low. Siocast is too new for a second-hand option. :-) Mould-making for either in silicone will be comparable (a pair of low temperature silicone discs for a mould is slightly above £20, plus time and skill in making the mould). My last order of pewter was 2p per gramme, but I bought 100kg at once, so that's an outlay of £2,000 in one go; I have, in the past, bought 250kg in one go - and I'm a light user. There is typically 2g to 3g in a 15mm figure. You'd have to make a lot of 15mm figures in plastic using Siocast to pay off the cost of the machine if you were to buy, rather than hire, one: in my view, you'd be better off doing 28mm figures using the technology. On the other hand, Siocast's injection moulding technology is probably less skill intensive than spin-casting. That has attractions. :-) As I say, cost of living is the greatest expense: food, home, utilities, family. That is, ultimately, what a customer is paying for, not the material in the figures nor the manufacturing. Forgive my ignorance - what is a bob weight machine? £30,000 is a high cost asset even if it does reduce production costs from 6p per figure to 1p. However, just crunching the numbers you give that means it would have to produce 600,000 figures before it breaks even. I normally order about £100 at a time or about 200 figures, which if typical, means you’d need to process 3,000 orders via the Siocast machine before it even begins to make a profit. I can see how that could be an investment too far and also how it makes more sense with 28mm which at almost twice the height = eight times the volume so you are saving up to 40p production costs per figure. Basically it would seem to come down to volume of both the figures and the sales. I can also see why it makes sense for PSC - who no doubt need similar machines to support their core business. If so the £30,000 is a sunk cost and so product development in this manner is just the cost of licensing plus new moulds. If licensing is say 1p or 2p per figure and your figure for £20 per mould holds true then break even volume per mould is under 1000 figures which with 120 per sprue is fewer than 10 boxes to sell before breaking even. All of a sudden this makes sense if you are keeping an existing machine busy with a new range of figures. However, one thing I haven’t thought of is your time - and as you say that is ultimately what us punters are ultimately paying for. The Siocast machine looked like it could turn round a mould in about 15 seconds. I imagine that with a spin casting machine and pewter that would take far longer to allow the moulds to cool etc. Plus if you are just taking a plastic sprue and checking it for quality before boxing it the turn round time is far shorter for 120 plastic figures than similar numbers of pewter figures which would need to be cut from moulds, pewter recycled and then figures packaged in ziplock bags of 8 with labels. I suppose this comes down to volume again but is this a consideration? |
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Post by fighting15s on Jan 2, 2020 11:24:29 GMT
Forgive my ignorance - what is a bob weight machine? A bob-weight machine uses weights on arms to apply pressure to the top plate of the casting machine (and therefore to the mould). Pressure is changed by using different weights or by moving weights up or down the arms. However, in practice, once you've found the setting that works for your moulds, you do not have to change the position or value of the weights. It's a far cheaper way of making a casting machine than using a compressor operated ram, but makes casting more of a black art. I explain how the Saunders bob-weight casting machine works at orun.wordpress.com/2017/06/24/the-saunders-spin-casting-machine-part-1/ (WARNING: Nerdy!  ) Compressor machines have advantages in that pressure is set using a gauge, so you actually know what it is in, say, PSI. Plus increasing the spin speed to get a mould to cast only changes the speed (the consequence of increasing speed on a bob-weight machine is that it also affects the pressure applied). The £20 cost of silicone discs is just the base cost of the discs: mould making costs come on top. As you surmise, the Siocast system is probably much easier to use: more push-button operation than skill and experience. |
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