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Post by stevie on Sept 9, 2019 10:43:13 GMT
This is something that came up in a resent recent game, and I wonder what other players think about it. It’s a bit difficult to explain, so I have resorted to the following crude diagram. S1 S2 S3
▄ ▄ ▄▌← Knights
▄ ▄
B1 B2 ▄
↑ AxHere a line of 3 Spears is facing 2 Blades and an Auxiliary, with Knights ‘hard flanking’ S3. I deliberately moved the 2 Blades and the Knight into contact (but not the Ax). S3 had to turn-to-face the Knights and were destroyed, meaning the Knights pursued 1 BW. This is where it gets interesting.B2 fought S2 next, but S2 is now ‘hard flanked’ by the pursuing Knights, meaning S2 suffers a -1 for being flanked and will be destroyed if it recoils. My opponent questioned if this was correct, on the following grounds:- * the Knights are in effect fighting twice in a single bound, * and my opponent thinks that all combat is simultaneous, and the Knight is still fighting S3 when B2-S2 fight. My counter arguments were:- * think of it as a ‘morale effect’ (S2 sees friends routing with the enemy bearing down on their vulnerable open flank, so a recoil would also cause S2 to break and run as well), * and combat is not simultaneous (if B1 fought first and recoiled S1, then S2 would be both overlapped and lose their side-support when the B2-S2 fight was resolved). Soooo...did I make the right call? (The answer is important, as if I’m wrong I promised to buy him a pint  )Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by nangwaya on Sept 9, 2019 10:52:00 GMT
I think you made the right call Stevie.
If all combat is simultaneous, then what would be the point in allowing the player whose bound it is to determine the order in which combats are resolved?
As I am sure you have plenty of experience with this, in that determining the sequence of combat resolutions can be very important, especially if you are indeed trying to get recoils or overlaps to help you out on subsequent combats.
You don't owe him a pint  |
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Post by stevie on Sept 9, 2019 10:56:19 GMT
No...but I now owe you one Nangwaya.  |
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Post by martin on Sept 9, 2019 11:03:40 GMT
This is something that came up in a resent game, and I wonder what other players think about it. It’s a bit difficult to explain, so I have resorted to the following crude diagram. S1 S2 S3
▄ ▄ ▄▌← Knights
▄ ▄
B1 B2 ▄
↑ AxHere a line of 3 Spears is facing 2 Blades and an Auxiliary, with Knights ‘hard flanking’ S3. I deliberately moved the 2 Blades and the Knight into contact (but not the Ax). S3 had to turn-to-face the Knights and were destroyed, meaning the Knights pursued 1 BW. This where it gets interesting.B2 fought S2 next, but S2 is now ‘hard flanked’ by the pursuing Knights, meaning S2 suffers a -1 for being flanked and will be destroyed if it recoils. My opponent questioned if this was correct, on the following grounds:- * the Knights are in effect fighting twice in a single bound, * and my opponent thinks that all combat is simultaneous, and the Knight is still fighting S3 when B2-S2 fight. My counter arguments were:- * think of it as a ‘moral effect’ (S2 sees friends routing with the enemy bearing down on their vulnerable open flank, so a recoil would also cause S2 to break and run as well), * and combat is not simultaneous (if B1 fought first and recoiled S1, then S2 would be both overlapped and lose their side-support when the B2-S2 fight was resolved). Soooo...did I make the right call? (The answer is important, as if I’m wrong I promised to buy him a pint )Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
You were correct. Part of the ‘art’ of DBA is choosing the sequence of your combats. They’re NOT simultaneous, they’re sequential. Doing the Kn first, and thus permitting it to pursue into ‘hard flank’ contact is the best choice, for the reasons already seen. Likewise, a SCh doing similar is just as handy. One less pint to buy....🍺🍺🍺 |
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Post by stevie on Sept 9, 2019 11:28:35 GMT
Thanks Martin (DBA is only my second favourite hobby 🍺  ) But what about the last sentence under “Pursuing” on page 12:- “If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts (an) enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge, they line up immediately (i.e. they must try to conform, if they can) as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.” ...and my opponent wanted the Knight flank contact to be ignored on the above grounds (so the B2-S2 would be a straight fight, with no overlaps or recoil destruction). Even a dedicated rule lawyer like myself found it hard to say this is not correct, hence my question. (of course, you could say the Knight is not actually doing the fighting, as B2 is rolling the dice) |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Sept 9, 2019 11:41:53 GMT
We have seen this happen several times.
You made the correct call.
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Post by Baldie on Sept 9, 2019 13:16:47 GMT
Whats all this everyone agreeing with each other.
I am pulling out of this thread in disgust.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 9, 2019 16:06:20 GMT
Stevie - not only were you right and under no obligation to buy the beers I think it is only right and proper for your opponent to buy you the beers on the grounds that you taught him a valuable lesson. The phasing player chooses the order of which combats to fight first!
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Post by stevie on Sept 9, 2019 17:20:30 GMT
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Post by bob on Sept 10, 2019 6:12:10 GMT
I do agree that the Kn Can pursue into a flank of an enemy. It’s no different is it then when an element wins a combat and then moves into a overlap position Through pursuit or recoil.
I think all the combats are simultaneous, Some just take longer to finish than others. The player picks the order in which they finish. In the example above the combat with the Kn Happen to finish first, and it was able to move into the flank of the continuing combat with S2.
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 7:06:23 GMT
But Bob, my opponent (called Ian by the the way, 6 foot 4 but really a gentle giant) does have a point. The last sentence under “Pursuing” on page 12 does say:- “Pursuers line up immediately...but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.” ...and being the understanding, caring, loveable person that I am, I can see his point of view that the Knights are too busy fighting and chasing their first enemy to be able to influence a second one this bound. I have always played it that ‘where they currently are is what matters’, and never thought any deeper. That’s why I needed to ask the question, because his different interpretation does kind of make sense. (I still think it’s wrong though)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by bluestone28 on Sept 10, 2019 7:35:51 GMT
i'm agrree with you Stevie, for me you Knight just pursued in a straight line and his front contact the flank of the Spears (there will be not any line up), and you right too, the combats are not simultaneous, so you can choose the order of combats as you want. Here Knights add "just" pressure to the poor Spears Flank, that give them the idea of "sauve qui peut!" That sort of "combo" effects are also the beauty of DBA!  what if the Kn contact the spear not "front corner to flank corner" ? (i mean right orientation against flank but not the right position |
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 8:38:33 GMT
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 10, 2019 8:43:06 GMT
So Stevie - if B2 wasn’t there S2 would line up immediately with the pursuing knights and not count as an overlap in the B1 vs S1 fight.
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 9:24:15 GMT
Hmmm...it’s not quite that simple Paddy (although the final positions would be as you say).
Pursuit contact [rule 12.11]:
If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts (an) enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge,
they line up immediately (i.e. the pursuers must try to conform, if they can) as if contact was by a tactical move,
but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.
...but next bound, after the movement phase and before the combat phase...
Turning to Face a Flank or Rear Contact [rule 10.1]:
Immediately after the movement phase, elements contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face
the first enemy element to contact them (unless they are already in full front edge contact with another enemy
element, or providing rear support) (see figure 14a).
Existing contacts are adjusted by moving the elements forward, back or the minimum sideways to maintain contact.
Therefore:-
(first bound) Move Phase ---> Turn to Face ---> Combat Phase ---> Knights Pursue
(next bound) Move Phase ---> Turn to Face ---> Combat Phase.
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