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Post by j on Sept 10, 2019 10:10:17 GMT
I may be being stupid here but is it not the case that if the pursuing element contacts an otherwise unengaged element that element must turn to face/conform & the combat not resolved until the next bound with the pursuer as the primary combatant, whereas if the pursuing element ends up in a flanking or overlapping situation, it only lends assistance in the form of -1 to the contacted element when it fights the element in front of it? Bugger! That sounds more complicated than it was in my head  Regards, j |
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Post by bluestone28 on Sept 10, 2019 10:23:55 GMT
yes but, what about the current fight B2 vs S2 ? (is the Kn give -1 malus to S2? What happen if S2 must recoil?) |
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 14:36:32 GMT
yes but, what about the current fight B2 vs S2 ? (is the Kn to give a -1 to S2? What happen if S2 must recoil?) S2 will suffer a -1 due to the Knight flank attack, and if it has to recoil it will be destroyed, because “Destroyed Elements” page 12 paragraph 1 says:- “An element that has an enemy front edge in contact with its side or rear edge is destroyed by recoiling, being pushed back, fleeing, or being in a column whose front element is destroyed.” (See also figures 19b, 19c and 20a to 20f, as well as the FAQ).As I said to my lofty mate... ...”don’t worry about how or when the Knights got there, just accept that they are there”.  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 14:40:42 GMT
I may be being stupid here but is it not the case that if the pursuing element contacts an otherwise unengaged element that element must turn to face/conform & the combat not resolved until the next bound with the pursuer as the primary combatant, whereas if the pursuing element ends up in a flanking or overlapping situation, it only lends assistance in the form of -1 to the contacted element when it fights the element in front of it? Bugger! That sounds more complicated than it was in my head Regards, j Ah...I too think it would be much better if ‘turning-to-face’ were instant on contact instead of the artificially complex ‘wait-till-the-end-of-the-move-phase-before-turning’ method. (See fanaticus.boards.net/post/8912/ )However, (warning! Rule Lawyer alert!) it’s not what Phil Barker’s rules say. When to conform [rule 9.10, last sentence]:- Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact (see p.10), contacted elements conform at contact. ---and--- Turning to Face a Flank or Rear Contact [rule 10.1]:- Immediately after the movement phase, elements contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face the first enemy element to contact them (unless they are already in full front edge contact with another enemy element, or providing rear support). (See also figure 14a). Still, if you (and Martin) wish to support my attempts to get this unnecessary and cumbersome rule changed in any future version of DBA, I shall welcome you with open arms.  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 10, 2019 16:50:31 GMT
Stevie,
I’m not convinced and would play this the same as j. My rationale is given in [square brackets]:
Pursuit contact [rule 12.11]:
If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts (an) enemy [as is the case with Knights pursuing into S2] or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge,
they i.e.S2] line up immediately (i.e. the pursuers must try to conform, if they can) as if contact was by a tactical move [so S2 turns to face immediately and deprives S1 of overlap]
but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.
Turning to Face a Flank or Rear Contact [rule 10.1]:-
Immediately after the movement phase [well it is already over for this bound so S2 has better react to the Knights pursuit “as if by tactical move” so this means the pursuit has effectively re-opened the move phase. It doesn’t say wait until next tactical move] elements contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face the first enemy element to contact them (unless they are already in full front edge contact [which S2 isn’t] with another enemy element, or providing rear support).
So I’d say:
(first bound) Move Phase ---> Turn to Face ---> Combat ---> Victory ---> Knights Pursuit ---> Turn to Face
(next bound) Move Phase (can’t move they are already in contact) ---> Combat Phase ---> Post-combat resolution.
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 17:16:40 GMT
I agree with you entirely Paddy. Isn't it a pity that the rules as currently written don't allow it. (If you want to "House Rule" it, them I'm with you all the way.
See fanaticus.boards.net/thread/1146/house-rule-index
and look for "Gameplay Changes", "Instantly Turning-To-Face") |
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 10, 2019 18:00:11 GMT
I maybe wrong in the way I’m reading it - but using the logic above I think they do.
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 20:52:45 GMT
Well...like the river debate, we are back to wanting the rules to say one thing,
when in fact they actually say something else.
“Moving Into Contact With The Enemy”, page 9, second paragraph, last sentence:-
“Unless turning to face a flank or rear contact (see page 10), contacted elements conform at contact.”
How can it be clearer?...conform when contacted, except when contacted in the flank or rear.
“Turning To Face A Flank Or Rear Contact”, page 10, first paragraph, first sentence:-
“Immediately after the movement phase, elements contacted in the flank or rear turn to face...”
Contacted in the flank or rear?...then don’t turn-to-face until immediately after the movement phase.
Not after pursuing...not after the combat phase...not after the shooting phase...
...but immediately after movement.
“Pursuing”, page 12, very last sentence:-
“If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge,
they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.”
Pursuing and you make contact?...then ‘line-up’ (i.e. get those front corners touching each other).
No mention of anyone ‘turning-to-face’...not surprising, as that is already covered on page 10 above.
No, I don’t like it either, but it’s what the rules say.
Do we play by Phil Barker’s rules, or do we distort things to suit our own preferences?
I’m game...but let’s be honest with ourselves admit that we are changing what’s printed.
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Post by stevie on Sept 10, 2019 21:04:29 GMT
On the other hand, I suppose we could stretch the word 'they', so that:-
“Pursuing”, page 12, very last sentence:-
“If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge,
they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.”
...so that 'they' could mean either the pursuers OR those they contact.
But who decides?
Do the pursuers have to conform, or do those contacted have to do so?
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Post by j on Sept 10, 2019 21:19:02 GMT
I maybe wrong in the way I’m reading it - but using the logic above I think they do. Maybe we're back to the "rules as written" being interpreted in "different ways". I hope not. I'm just seeking clarification. If I don't agree with the consensus (if there is one) I will work out a house rule but I'd rather not... Regards, j |
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Post by nangwaya on Sept 10, 2019 22:05:26 GMT
Maybe I am out to lunch and/or not understanding the issue, but based on the diagram and order of combat mentioned by Stevie, I don't see what the issue is.
Once the Kn eliminates S3 and pursues which results in contact with S2, S2 cannot conform to the Kn as they are already in contact with B2, thus S2 will have a -1 in combat when it has to resolve its combat with B2, and better hope they do not end up with a recoil result on them.
Please enlighten me if I am mistaken.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 10, 2019 22:25:49 GMT
Stevie,
I get what you are saying but think it is overly black and white and assumes that once the movement phase is over it is over for good, final, end of! No discussion! For me the key phrase is “as if by tactical movement” which means “go back to the movement phase and treat the pursuit as happening in that phase - which includes the turn to face at the end.” Not “wait until the next bound.” The major division in DBA is between bounds and not phases - so I don’t know why unfinished actions should carry over between bounds rather that be completed within a single bound. Just makes more sense to me and is within the RAW if interpreted as outlined above. Besides if the turn to face happened in the next bound I’d forget it 75% of the time. Plus what if the Knights were contacted in the flank during the next bound - who turns where then?
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 10, 2019 22:27:35 GMT
Maybe I am out to lunch and/or not understanding the issue, but based on the diagram and order of combat mentioned by Stevie, I don't see what the issue is. Once the Kn eliminates S3 and pursues which results in contact with S2, S2 cannot conform to the Kn as they are already in contact with B2, thus S2 will have a -1 in combat when it has to resolve its combat with B2, and better hope they do not end up with a recoil result on them. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. nangwaya - yes but now remove B2 from the diagram. What happens then? That’s where we are st now. |
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Post by bob on Sept 10, 2019 22:31:05 GMT
There is another rule to take into account:
"Combat to both front and to flank and/or rear or when overlapped or overlapping:
When an element is in close combat both to front and to flank or rear or in close combat to its front and overlapped, only it and the enemy element in front fight each other. Others only provide tactical factors."
"“If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge,
they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.”"
So, Ian suggests that after the Kn defeats S3 and it pursues into the flank of S2, the combat involving S2 is resolved next bound? Very strange, no matter how tall he is. I believe everyone else would think that the combat between B2 and S2 is resolved this bound. Each combat in DBA is resolved taking into account the situation as it exists when that combat takes place. If we look at the combat we find a Blade attacking a Spear, and a Kn on the flank of the Spear. Now read the rule I cite at the top. The Kn is not fighting, is it, it is just a tactical factor.
In the time it takes for rules development, not all situations and text can be resolved. Phil is not always as strict with his text as he should be. In the pursuit rule above, could he be thinking only of the pursuer engaging an enemy alone. So not combat between the pursuer and the contacted element, just line up. There was no discussion of the situation at the beginning of the thread, so we must make a common sense conclusion. The Knight is not in combat with the spear, it is just a tactical factor.
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Post by bob on Sept 10, 2019 22:34:45 GMT
Maybe I am out to lunch and/or not understanding the issue, but based on the diagram and order of combat mentioned by Stevie, I don't see what the issue is. Once the Kn eliminates S3 and pursues which results in contact with S2, S2 cannot conform to the Kn as they are already in contact with B2, thus S2 will have a -1 in combat when it has to resolve its combat with B2, and better hope they do not end up with a recoil result on them. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. nangwaya - yes but now remove B2 from the diagram. What happens then? That’s where we are st now. If no combat between B2 and S2, then a whole new question  Easily resolved. The Kn pursues into the flank of S2, and just as if this were a tactical move, S2 faces the Kn, and the combat is resolved next bound. |
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Easily resolved. The Kn pursues into the flank of S2, and just as if this were a tactical move, S2 faces the Kn, and the combat is resolved next bound.