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Post by davidjconstable on May 31, 2019 19:40:36 GMT
I had missed the move distance so in fact it would take two bounds.
The rules are very clear about an overlap being in corner to corner contact, so all troops can close the door from an overlap, but WWg etc cannot move to count as an overlap.
I am sure that it was never intended for WWg etc. to be able to close a door or move into an overlap situation, so it is a grey area, FAQ could do with clarifying.
Contact is not defined as being one thing or another, so you are either in contact or not, and therein lies the problem.
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Post by stevie on Jun 1, 2019 7:19:00 GMT
They could slide along an edge as long as they ended the move not in contact with enemy. Hmmm...I’m not sure that I entirely agree with that Bob. Page 9, paragraph 12, “Moving into Contact”, the very last item at the bottom of the page says:- “ Static troops [9.12]: CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into any contact with enemy (except that a WWg mobile tower can contact an enemy-held city, fort or camp). Other elements (except Scythed Chariots) can contact a city, fort or camp with their front edge.” (Note that the brackets are my addition - I like to put rule exceptions in brackets to make them more memorable)This seems to imply that you can never voluntarily move ‘static troops’ into any kind of contact or touch an enemy... ...not even temporarily. And they will be touching while they are sliding along an edge. Of course, moving just 1mm away from contact, if they can, mitigates any touching. However, I have been known to take the rules tooooo literally at times...  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by davidjconstable on Jun 1, 2019 8:53:22 GMT
Sliding would count as edge contact, which is not permitted, so you cannot slide past from an overlap situation if WWg etc.
MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY
An element can move into edge contact with an enemy flank edge only if it starts entirely on the opposite side of a line prolonging that edge or if partly on the opposite sides of lines prolonging both flank and rear edges.
NOTE - It does not say which edge, so any edge counts as contact.
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Post by stevie on Jun 1, 2019 12:31:11 GMT
Note that the rule does NOT say:- “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot end a move in contact with enemy.” No, instead it says quite clearly:- “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into any contact with an enemy.” The word ‘Any’ in this case means:- All contact... Every contact... Any kind of contact... Not as much as a single contact... At any time... Not even temporary contact... ...with no exceptions mentioned (apart from WWg mobile towers can touch a City, Fort, or Camp). And that includes trying to slide passed someone you are already touching and are in contact with. But we must remember that there are two different types of contact - hard contact and soft contact. Hard Contact is when a front-edge (either yours or your opponents) is in touching an edge. This prevents breaking off, which can only occur as a result of a combat outcome. Soft Contact is corner-to-corner or mutual side-edge to side-edge touching. This does allow breaking off or the moving away from the contact. And ‘static troops’ (i.e. CP, Lit, CWg, Art, and ordinary WWg) can't make any move that would touch an enemy... ...either at the end or during the move. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by davidjconstable on Jun 1, 2019 14:48:31 GMT
The important word is MOVE. If a WWg etc end up at the end of combat as an overlap, it is IN CONTACT, therefore the word MOVE does not apply, you are not MOVING INTO CONTACT as you are already IN contact.
P.S. The overlap contact occurs by accident, so it needs one line to say WWg etc do not count towards overlaps, in that case no corner to corner contact would then occur. |
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Post by paddy649 on Jun 1, 2019 15:40:52 GMT
The important word is MOVE. If a WWg etc end up at the end of combat as an overlap, it is IN CONTACT, therefore the word MOVE does not apply, you are not MOVING INTO CONTACT as you are already IN contact.
P.S. The overlap contact occurs by accident, so it needs one line to say WWg etc do not count towards overlaps, in that case no corner to corner contact would then occur. So David are you saying that because it is already in contact act, it can move, remaining in contact, and finish in a different sort of combat? I’m not sure that is the way I’d interpret the rule. If you move and finish up in contact then surely you have moved into contact. There is nothing accidental if you have moved and finish in contact. |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jun 1, 2019 16:21:18 GMT
Note that the rule does NOT say:- “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot end a move in contact with enemy.” No, instead it says quite clearly:- “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into any contact with an enemy.” The word ‘Any’ in this case means:- All contact... Every contact... Any kind of contact... Not as much as a single contact... At any time... Not even temporary contact... ...with no exceptions mentioned (apart from WWg mobile towers can touch a City, Fort, or Camp). And that includes trying to slide passed someone you are already touching and are in contact with. But we must remember that there are two different types of contact - hard contact and soft contact. Hard Contact is when a front-edge (either yours or your opponents) is in touching an edge. This prevents breaking off, which can only occur as a result of a combat outcome. Soft Contact is corner-to-corner or mutual side-edge to side-edge touching. This does allow breaking off or the moving away from the contact. And ‘static troops’ (i.e. CP, Lit, CWg, Art, and ordinary WWg) can't make any move that would touch an enemy... ...either at the end or during the move. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
That is what we thought as well. |
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Post by stevie on Jun 1, 2019 16:55:17 GMT
Actually the rule is really quite simple. ‘Moving’ means physically picking up an element and placing it in a different location. ‘Contact’ means to touch another element, in this case an enemy. If they begin a bound in contact, the fine. Good for them. The contact was not caused by their voluntary movement. And if they want break off from a ‘soft contact’ (i.e. corner-to-corner or mutual side-edges touching), they can. But they can’t both move to a new location and touch an enemy element. It has to be one or the other...not both. So either stay in contact and don’t move, or move away while avoiding touching any enemy element. Because CP, Lit, CWg, Art, and ordinary WWg (those I call ‘static troops’) can’t spend PIPs to make any voluntary physical change of location or direction if they would touch any enemy at any time once the movement has begun. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by davidjconstable on Jun 2, 2019 11:33:11 GMT
The important word is MOVE. If a WWg etc end up at the end of combat as an overlap, it is IN CONTACT, therefore the word MOVE does not apply, you are not MOVING INTO CONTACT as you are already IN contact.
P.S. The overlap contact occurs by accident, so it needs one line to say WWg etc do not count towards overlaps, in that case no corner to corner contact would then occur. So David are you saying that because it is already in contact act, it can move, remaining in contact, and finish in a different sort of combat? I’m not sure that is the way I’d interpret the rule. If you move and finish up in contact then surely you have moved into contact. There is nothing accidental if you have moved and finish in contact. If your opponent moves into contact with an adjoining element a WWg etc can act as an overlap.
Now the rule is clear that an overlap is in corner to corner contact. IT IS IN CONTACT. If it moves to close the door it maintains its corner to corner contact so stays in contact. BECAUSE IT IS IN CONTACT IT IS NOT MOVING INTO CONTACT. However if it attempted to slide past it would break the corner to contact, that means it would then be attempting to move into contact, this is not permitted.
So as I see it the WWg etc has the option to stay in position as an overlap, start the move to close the door. It cannot slide past, nor could it turn or move to act as an overlay or fight in melee, the turn or move would break the original corner to corner contact, it would then be moving into contact.
The move into contact rule limits what it can do, but it can close the door because it does not break its corner to corner contact and is therefore not moving into contact. This is clearly a grey area, it is a legal move, but should not be, so without rewriting moving into contact, the simplest thing is to add one line to say WWg etc cannot act as an overlap. This immediately stops the corner to corner contact rule from applying.
As you are already in corner to corner contact as an overlap, you do not break it by closing the door, you are still in corner to corner contact.
Note that the overlap rule only says corner to corner contact, so the overlap element can be at any angle.
Now if you say that contact does not apply when moving you will open a very large can of worms, not only for contact but the rules in general.
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Post by stevie on Jun 2, 2019 17:42:30 GMT
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Post by davidjconstable on Jun 2, 2019 20:16:28 GMT
Hi Steve
The problem is people ignore the rule about overlaps and corner to corner contact, and only use the rule about not moving into contact. They might just as well ignore whatever sections of the rules they do not like, and play all their games that way, whatever the circumstances.
The rules are clear, you cannot move into any form of contact. However if in an overlap the rules clearly state you are in corner to corner contact.
P.S. - try it with a few models, you will see what I mean. As long as you maintain that corner to corner contact you can close the door, you are already in contact, you do not need to break the corner to corner contact, so you are not moving into a contact.
It is an oddity, a grey area that needs to be covered in the wording, or FAQ sheet.
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Post by goragrad on Jun 2, 2019 22:54:35 GMT
I have been following this without, until now putting my hapenny's worth in, but have to say that I feel David has a point - a WWG, etc. in corner to corner contact would only be changing the nature of the contact, not moving into contact by closing the door.
I do disagree that an overlap is an 'accidental' contact in that the opponent deliberately made that contact, with the qualifier that the overlap could have come about as the result of a required advance after combat which might be considered an 'accident.'
On a further note, if a WWG is in an overlapping position and the opponent defeats the adjoining element and makes a required advance along the flank of the WWG, does that make that edge the new 'front edge' of the WWG element thus requiring the advancing unit to turn to face after its movement?
Frankly, can a WWG be in a 'side edge to side edge' contact without having an opponent's front edge in contact with one of its other edges?
Per the rules on contacts 'the first edge of the WWG element contacted is treated as its front edge.' The rule does not specify the nature of the contact.
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Post by stevie on Jun 3, 2019 7:12:06 GMT
Forgive me David, but I really don’t see the problem. If a CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg begins a bound in contact, and wishes to maintain that contact, then don’t move. If they insist on moving, then they must avoid any type of contact. Stay in contact or move...one or the other...owner’s choice. But they cannot both move and allow any form of contact.
As long as you maintain that corner to corner contact you can close the door, you are already in contact, you do not need to break the corner to corner contact, so you are not moving into a contact.
It is an oddity, a grey area that needs to be covered in the wording, or FAQ sheet.
Ahhh, but David... ....a WWg or Art going from a corner-to-corner overlap to a “shutting the door” position IS a form of movement. The element is voluntarily paying PIPs to physically change its location from one point to another. And the rule says: “CP, Lit, CWg, Art or WWg cannot move into any contact with an enemy.” It doesn’t matter whether if it’s already in contact or not... ...if it moves, in any way at all, then it cannot end up touching an enemy element. For example:- Blade
WWg SpearQuestion 1: is the blue WWg overlapping the red Bd?...yes it is, if the front corners are touching. Question 2: can the blue WWg in its bound attack the flank of the red Bd?... ....no, it cannot, because it would move and end up in contact, which is not allowed. The WWg only has two choices: either move away from the contact, OR, don’t move at all and stay in contact. ----------------------------------------------- Mind you, Goragrad has come up with an interesting situation that I had never considered before. Take this example:- ↓ WWg Blade
SpearThis is the same as the diagram above, but the Blade has managed to recoil the Spear and pursued. And page 10 paragraph 1 says: “War Wagons count the edge first contacted as its front edge, so does not turn.” So as the right-edge of the WWg was the first to be contacted, it counts as the WWg’s front-edge. No need for the WWg to spend PIPs or move...it will be hard-flanking the Blade with a hard front-edge contact. Therefore, if the Blade has to recoil, it will be destroyed, because of page 12 paragraph 1:- “An element that has an enemy front edge in contact with its side or rear edge is destroyed by recoiling.” LATER EDIT
Now I come to think about it, what I said above is not quite true.
Only if an enemy front-edge contacts your flank or rear are you forced to turn-to-face...
...or a WWg will temporarily swap its side-edge for a front-edge.
In my second diagram the WWg doesn’t have an enemy front-edge touching it, so its front is still its front.
But it is in contact, so still cannot both move and contact an enemy in any way.
So I at least got that bit right.  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by goragrad on Jun 13, 2019 5:35:47 GMT
So, stevie, as a war wagon is an 'all round defensive formation' with TZs on all four edges, logically in that diagram the edge facing the BD would become the front edge for the determination of flanking or other future combat.
And should the SP element in your diagram have been eliminated instead, the war wagon would logically have as its front edge the edge in contact with the BD either at the end of the outcome move or during its subsequent movement phase - it doesn't need to 'turn to face.' If after the outcome move, the BD would have a front corner in contact with an enemy front edge and would be required to turn to face. Absent, of course another enemy element in contact with another of the war wagon's edges.
Insofar as overlapping or flanking a war wagon, the negative combat modifier reflects the fact that the crews are fighting on more than one front, not that they are 'flanked' in the same manner as other bodies of troops.
As with an infantry square in later eras, there is no safety in being on the 'flank' of a war wagon.
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Post by stevie on Jun 13, 2019 7:16:44 GMT
Hmmm Goragrad...this is indeed a tricky one. Yes, Figure 7e on page 19 does show that a WWg has Threat Zones extending from all sides, but says nothing about the front-edge swapping with a side-edge. It all depends on whether players take the following sentence out-of-context and at face value:- “A WWg counts the first edge contacted as its front-edge, so does not turn” ...or takes it in-context as relating to turning-to-face a flank or rear enemy front-edge contact. I think (but I could be wrong) that WWg only swap a side for a front-edge when attacked on that edge. It is after all embedded within the “Turning To Face A Flank Or Rear Contact” section. In other words, a normal element must turn-to-face a flank or rear attack (if it can), but a WWg in the same situation merely swaps the side for its front-edge, and does not turn. But in both cases this is only triggered by contact with an enemy front-edge, and not by mutual side-edge contacts. (Personally, I think the rule should say:-
“A WWg counts the first edge contacted by an enemy front-edge as its front-edge, so does not turn”...
...then there would be no confusion.)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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