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Post by jellyrovers on Apr 15, 2019 17:52:27 GMT
Hello all,
I am just wondering if there is a crucial importance in the base depth of elements from a rules point of view?
I am looking to base up my 2mm armies and the cavalry look better on a 40x20mm base than the regulated 40x30mm. If I did base then on the smaller base would that “break” the game? Maybe make the cavalry more manoeuvrable?
Caveat: These armies are for home play, I know a tournament would require the bases as stated in the rules.
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Post by goragrad on Apr 15, 2019 18:38:49 GMT
There is the fact that the third element of a column of 3 mounted elements based on 20mms would be 'in' the TZ of an opponent in frontal contact with the lead element.
On a quick reply, I am not thinking of any other significant issues.
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Post by primuspilus on Apr 15, 2019 23:15:15 GMT
Hello all, I am just wondering if there is a crucial importance in the base depth of elements from a rules point of view? I am looking to base up my 2mm armies and the cavalry look better on a 40x20mm base than the regulated 40x30mm. If I did base then on the smaller base would that “break” the game? Maybe make the cavalry more manoeuvrable? Caveat: These armies are for home play, I know a tournament would require the bases as stated in the rules. The basing system aas primarily designed to accomodate the size of the minis. I see no reason why, in the era of trying to eliminate cheezy geometry, it should matter a lick. Base how you like 'em, and how they look best! |
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Post by eg407 on Apr 16, 2019 3:47:52 GMT
The biggest issue is that the base widths are all the same. Other than that there is no restrictions about the base depths when used outside competitive games.
On the point of having the third element in a TZ, that's not quite true. With Abe of 40mm, only the front two elements of a column would be in a TZ if based on 20mm deep bases. So it would not change the game play all that much.
Cheers,
Ed
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Post by primuspilus on Apr 16, 2019 7:03:08 GMT
You may want to review the rules regarding threat zones. "within" means AT or less than 1BW away for the TZ, if I am recalling correctly. So, yes, a third element exactly with its front at 1BW is also TZed.
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Post by Simon on Apr 16, 2019 8:04:35 GMT
You may want to review the rules regarding threat zones. "within" means AT or less than 1BW away for the TZ, if I am recalling correctly. So, yes, a third element exactly with its front at 1BW is also TZed. Agree that is how I have always seeni it played. You are TZd if you at one BW from the front of the enemy element. Note that if you are just touching the side of a TZ you are not in the TZ! Simon |
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 16, 2019 12:20:47 GMT
The word "within" is an error. It was corrected for quite a time but crept back into the text at some point. No one noticed till after the book went to print.
The same error occurs in HoTT, but it is corrected by one of the HoTT diagrams.
The word should be "inside".
Joe Collins
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Post by martin on Apr 16, 2019 13:50:17 GMT
Hi Joe
Just to clarify, you’re referring to an element’s position relative to the side of the threat zone, not it’s position relative to the front of the threat zone (?)....
As far as I’m aware, the current thinking is that an element that is at 1BW from the front edge of the tz’ing element is considered ‘in’, so a recoiling chariot eg remains within TZ.
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 16, 2019 15:32:43 GMT
Hi Joe Just to clarify, you’re referring to an element’s position relative to the side of the threat zone, not it’s position relative to the front of the threat zone (?).... As far as I’m aware, the current thinking is that an element that is at 1BW from the front edge of the tz’ing element is considered ‘in’, so a recoiling chariot eg remains within TZ. Well... sort of... it is both.
An element to the side or to the front is not "inside" and therefore not in the threat zone... which is why we added the bit about touching the front.
An element 1 BW away to the front will be touching the far edge, thus it must obey the threat zone rule.
The chariot remains hindered by the threat zone... even after recoil.
Joe Collins
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Post by davidhoward on Apr 16, 2019 19:36:58 GMT
Hi Joe Just to clarify, you’re referring to an element’s position relative to the side of the threat zone, not it’s position relative to the front of the threat zone (?).... As far as I’m aware, the current thinking is that an element that is at 1BW from the front edge of the tz’ing element is considered ‘in’, so a recoiling chariot eg remains within TZ. Well... sort of... it is both.
An element to the side or to the front is not "inside" and therefore not in the threat zone... which is why we added the bit about touching the front.
An element 1 BW away to the front will be touching the far edge, thus it must obey the threat zone rule.
The chariot remains hindered by the threat zone... even after recoil.
Joe Collins
Joe, what is the intent of an element whose side only is touching the front edge of a TZ? For example, if Element A is flanking element X on the end of a linear group (flanked/door closed, not overlapped), is element Y, in corner to corner and side to side contact with X on the opposite side of X from A, also limited by element A's Threat Zone? |
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Post by eg407 on Apr 16, 2019 19:47:00 GMT
I'm in the same camp as David. Perhaps it's a translation error on our part here in Germany. We've always played 'within' as meaning 'inside' the BW. Not at the edge. It seems a little strange, as David points out.
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 16, 2019 21:20:59 GMT
I'm in the same camp as David. Perhaps it's a translation error on our part here in Germany. We've always played 'within' as meaning 'inside' the BW. Not at the edge. It seems a little strange, as David points out. The rules are in error.
The text should read "inside" instead of "within".
The text should be...
"“The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other element, or the area within 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group which is at least partly inside or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with the enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance into or towards contact with the enemy generating the TZ or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves.”
Phil defines the word 'within' to be touching. This causes the issue with the threat zone wording.
I would need a graphic to understand your question.
Joe Collins
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Post by davidhoward on Apr 16, 2019 21:53:38 GMT
www.facebook.com/groups/382414395294162/permalink/950717161797213?sfns=xmwaThis is the discussion that took place on Facebook. I'm hoping that comes through ok. I don't have another option for phot sharing, and my coding has fallen out of use. If the picture is visible, or if someone can share it, the question is whether the warband on the right can close the door on the light horse. Overwhelming opinion on the group was no, due to its flank being touched by the flanking light horse, and thus being within the TZ. Low tech version. Is Y in the TZ of A? BBBBB AAXXXXXYYYYY AAXXXXXYYYYY AA
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Post by jellyrovers on Apr 16, 2019 22:24:01 GMT
Thanks so much for the answers guys, I o for the 40x20mm and if the TZ problem comes up will review the answers here!
Thanks a lot.
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Post by bob on Apr 16, 2019 22:58:33 GMT
The text cannot be in error, the text is what the text is. We can wish the text might be something different but I’m with Lincoln Here, “Calling a sheep’s tail a leg doesn’t make it so”.
Whatever Phil intended is what Phil put into the text.
Further to this, I have looked back at earlier versions of the Edition 3 rules and never found the word "inside" used in the Threat Zone section. Here are some examples.
July 2013. “Within” means “at or closer than”.
July 17, 2013
THREAT ZONE
The area 1 BW deep in front of an element or the area within 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or fort containing enemy is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group in, entering or touching the far edge of an enemy TZ can move only: (a) to contact or advance towards line up with the front edge of 1 such element (or contact that camp, city or fort), or if a single element (b) straight back for its entire move, or (c) after combat; as an outcome move or to conform if still in contact.
September 25, 2013
THREAT ZONE
The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon) or the front edge of any other element, or the area within 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or fort containing enemy is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group in, entering or touching the far edge of an enemy TZ can move only: (a) to advance to line up in contact with or towards such contact, or parallel opposite the front edge of 1 such element (or contact that camp, city or fort); or if a single element (b) straight back for the entire move, or (c) after combat; as an outcome move or to conform if still in contact.
June, 2014
THREAT ZONE
The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other element, or the area within 1 BW of
any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group whose front edge enters an enemy
TZ or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with the enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance
into or towards contact with the enemy generating the TZ or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for
the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves.
Final Version
THREAT ZONE
The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other type of element, or the area within 1
BW of any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group which is at least partly within or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves.
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